Sharee Johnson [00:00:13]:
Hello and welcome to Recalibrating with me, Sharee Johnson, where you'll hear healthcare professionals and others sharing their stories of recalibrating life when the unexpected happened. As a psychologist and a coach, I've been listening deeply to people's stories for 35 years, and I've come to believe two things about people. The first is, having witnessed so many incredible stories of hope, adaptability, and human capacity, I truly believe that we are all capable of so much more than we really think we are. In times of challenge, humans have demonstrated that over and over again. Here on the Recalibrating Podcast, you'll get to hear amazing stories of healthcare professionals and others pivoting, overcoming, and recalibrating their lives. The second thing that the research and my experiences as a psychologist have shown me is that humans need each other. We need people. When we have support around us, when we tell each other our stories, when we connect through the reality of living our lives, we do so much better than when we pull back and hide what's really going on for us. Together on this podcast, we're going to unearth and amplify what helps us as humans, individually and collectively, to recalibrate in ways that help us change, grow, adapt, even surprise ourselves when life throws us a curveball. This podcast offers you the chance to be inspired, and encouraged to meet the unexpected in your life with grace, skills, and a belief in your own human capacity. Life is full of opportunities to recalibrate with agency, the right mindset, the right resources, and the right community. Today's storyteller is Dr. Cheryl Martin. Dr. Cheryl Martin is an emergency physician who works in Melbourne. Cheryl has spent nearly two decades working in emergency trauma and critical care settings in both Scotland and in Australia. Her other main professional interests are in sport, exercise, occupational, and lifestyle medicine, and the health and well-being and sustainability of the practice of her colleagues. Cheryl has held well-being portfolios at department, hospital, and college level, and in 2022 she traveled to the US to complete the Stanford Medicine Chief Wellness Officer course. In 2023 and '24, she completed a Global Senior Executive MBA program with Melbourne Business School to further deepen and broaden her strategic leadership, managerial judgment, and organizational behavior lenses. With a passion for science, art, and the practical application of how we might optimize our performance and well-being as clinicians, she also holds a great interest in the longevity of medical practice. The Mindful Medic podcast project was born in 2020, and I've had the absolute pleasure of being a guest on that podcast, which we will link in the show notes. Outside of work, Cheryl is an avid trail runner and can usually be found exploring the local coastal and mountain trails with her trail tribe. Cheryl has a yoga asana practice, and she describes running in natural settings as her moving meditation. It's with so much joy that I welcome Dr. Cheryl Martin to Recalibrating with Sharee Johnson. Hello, Cheryl. How are you?
Cheryl Martin [00:03:49]:
I'm very well. Thank you, Sharee. How are you?
Sharee Johnson [00:03:52]:
Great. Really delighted to be here to have some time to chat with you. So busy with all of your, your portfolio career. It's lovely to be having some time with you. So thank you for joining us. I want to start with what you're really doing now, recently. So you did your initial medical training in Scotland, then you came to Australia, you trained as an emergency physician, and that's still very much a part of your work. You have lots of other things going on now, so can you tell us a little bit about what your medical work looks like today?
Cheryl Martin [00:04:20]:
Just before I do that, can I thank you, Sharee, for the great honor of being part of this inaugural podcast? And you know, I've been been following your work for quite some time, and we might get into how we met. Um, I just, you know, I feel like I said to you at the beginning there that I might get as much out of this. Um, I feel like I'm going to get a little coaching masterclass. I saw you last year, um, have a conversation which hopefully is— you'll be able to link with Sasha and Jane on YouTube as part of, um, Jonathan Fisher's Global Burnout Summit. And that was a coaching masterclass. I think you were both excellent and generous with you know, just your time and, and being quite open and vulnerable, um, discussing, you know, maybe some of the topics that we'll cover today. So thank you for that.
Sharee Johnson [00:05:05]:
Thanks, Cheryl.
Cheryl Martin [00:05:07]:
And I've now forgotten the question you asked me initially.
Sharee Johnson [00:05:11]:
Tell us about your medical, your working life just as it is today, and then we'll get into the backstory after we hear what you're currently—
Cheryl Martin [00:05:18]:
so I have been— so I've been a doctor for, uh, oh, nearly 23 years now. And most of that time, I think you had mentioned, has been in emergency medicine. So I've been a fellow and specialist in emergency for, you know, the bulk of the past decade. But perhaps in more recent years have certainly, you know, I'm going to say kind of changed and transitioned. I think, you know, the kind of beauty for emergency medicine, it is a very general specialty. You do get to really you know, see across the healthcare system. You probably see the transition points within the system and certainly, you know, some of the pain and struggle points. And I'd say that my interest in health and medicine has probably been always general and a bit more diverse and holistic is probably the word that I would use for that. And so in more recent years, I've stepped away from, you know, a lot of that frontline emergency medicine, particularly in the past 12 months. I have a current clinical advisor role in the health regulation space, and I also have some clinical work more in what I'm going to call preventative health. You know, the bit that I think unfortunately, through our healthcare system, is very opportunistic. And so that is quite deliberate. It's also encompassing the occupational health space and lifestyle medicine, which, you know, I think is a term that can be quite difficult to define. But really, I think my value proposition today in that space is that I'm afforded some time and space to explore with people what matters to them in terms of their health. And I think that is a bit of a luxury today. So that's currently what I'm doing. I have a number of other— I'm going to say some passion projects. I continue to be involved in mentoring, peer support. I think doctors' health and well-being is something that I have been involved with for a number of years now, and that's how we connected.
Sharee Johnson [00:07:27]:
So let's get into the detail a little bit. You are still doing some clinical work, I think. So, um, I wanted to ask you a question about that because a lot of doctors feel like when they come to the time that they've invested their energy in their clinical whatever specialty they're in, and then they start to think about doing other things, maybe education or research or being on committees or regulation, leaving to work in a private company even, or online, these kinds of new jobs that are coming about. And they worry a lot about leaving their clinical work or getting out of touch with their clinical work. Do you think about that in terms of confidence when you're on the ED floor and you're doing less shifts or less regular shifts?
Cheryl Martin [00:08:11]:
Yeah, and I think that's something I've been considering throughout my career. And look, I'm now mid-career, probably transitioning the other side of mid-career, and I And I even see young clinicians considering this now, because I think we're more aware there are more opportunities to use our clinical skill sets in other environments. And I think that is a good thing. But also, in terms of that core clinical skill set, and undoubtedly, deliberate practice is important to stay current and relevant. And I think you have to have some introspective— we might talk a bit about introspective practice and really kind of self- calibration of where you're at and relying on other people around you to kind of know where you are and where your limits are. You know, I think that knowing where we are still competent, that continuing professional development process. And so I think that's very dynamic. I don't think that is linear. I don't think there's one answer and I don't think there's one size fits all. But I think it's an important conversation and I think we have to be quite intentional about it.
Sharee Johnson [00:09:16]:
Perhaps I don't want you to give me a number, but do you feel like you've got a sense of what the minimum is for you? You know, some doctors say to me, I need to do at least 2 shifts a month in the ED, or I need to be, you know, GPs say I need 1 day a week of being a GP isn't enough for me to feel like I'm current. Do you have a sense, not to give us a number, but do you feel like that becomes—
Cheryl Martin [00:09:37]:
I think it becomes part of the equation.
Sharee Johnson [00:09:39]:
Yeah.
Cheryl Martin [00:09:39]:
And also thinking, you know, forwards, you know, what, how that might change. And also me, you know, change plus or minus. So I think that, and again, I'll speak from my experience, I have kind of stepped out of emergency medicine, stepped back in, and, you know, certainly through COVID, I had really planned to do something else and then found myself, you know, very much full-time in the clinical space again. You know, even after my fellowship, I was doing some sports and exercise medicine and exploring other avenues. I've always been, you know, kind of exploring other options. I think that's quite common in emergency physicians, and I actually see that more generally in the clinical space now. But I think knowing that that can change, and there's certainly people that leave and then want to return because they miss it, they miss their clinical work. And I think that is fascinating. And so how you support them to do that, and there's certainly— I'm going to put my regulatory hat on this. In terms of recency of practice, we've got certainly some guidelines and actually very strict policy around that. But, you know, I think knowing what that looks like for individuals in terms of the CPD is important.
Sharee Johnson [00:10:52]:
I really love that you've talked about that with such enthusiasm, Cheryl, because I think it really is dynamic. And people come into coaching with this idea that I have to whatever, I have to work a minimum of this many shifts, or I have to be current in all sorts of ways. That's really pretty rigid in their thinking. And one of the jobs I think of effective coaching is to try and blow some of those things up, those myths or those stories that we're telling ourselves, if only to have a good look at what I'm believing and where did that come from. Your decision ultimately might still be the same. You might still say, oh, I think that I've got about the right number of shifts or the right amount of time that I'm doing CPD or whatever it is. But it's this opportunity to reflect and look carefully and say, well, is that still true for me now at 40 as it was when I was 35, or, you know, and, and I love your phrase, I'm going to steal that, that plus or minus, you know, this plus or minus is, is really fluid and can move. And we, we won't talk about, um, you know, obviously there are a whole lot of caveats we can put around that. Every specialty is going to be different. Let's come back to your journey. You have been in Australia for quite a long time, and I know that you, um, you know, your work is is mostly in Australia these days, so that's very lucky for us. Can we go back and learn a little bit about the kind of journey? What, what happened? How did you come from Scotland to Australia? That was obviously a recalibration. What was going on then?
Cheryl Martin [00:12:18]:
I think I may have— you've probably heard this story a couple of times, but I've been a bit obsessed with Australia for quite some time. So my, my mum's sister, my aunt and uncle moved here many, many years ago now, and my cousins were all born here in Melbourne. Um, where I am today. And I first visited when I was 9, um, you know, kind of really long trip for a 9-year-old from Glasgow and, um, you know, for our whole family. And it was really an incredible experience. And, you know, I, I think it was around the time of, you know, I think about neighbors. And I remember we had a school— it was a kind of school project, and we were all divided in the class, and my group got Australia. And I— it was in the days of travel magazines, and I would be just sitting taking pictures of, you know, coral from the Great Barrier Reef. And yeah, so I kind of always— it was interesting when I returned, I really, really pined for it. And when I was a medical student, a couple of my friends did the year overseas who weren't studying medicine, and I went out in my summer holidays and I stayed with them. And so they were working in Sydney in the Rocks, and they had jobs in restaurants and it's very glamorous. We stayed opposite Tiffany's in this, in this little flat where I just— all I remember is the cockroaches coming out of the toaster, to be honest. But I was still living the dream. And so I stayed there for a couple of weeks. We went up to Queensland to one of the other girls' family's farms. I had fresh mango for the first time. You know, all these experiences that I remember. And then I actually came to Melbourne to see my aunt and uncle again. And so, you know, I think when I qualified, I was quite determined that I would like to come and work here. So I did do my intern year in Glasgow and 6 months of old money in SHO in A&E. And I got on the internet to find my job. I didn't really think it very, you know, I hadn't really thought it through, I'll be honest. I found out I was on the wrong visa. I was determined I wasn't going to go to Melbourne because my family were there. I was going to be independent. And so maybe this is the lesson in recalibration. You know, when you step outside your comfort zone and you want to be very much doing this independently alone, I don't think you can do any of these big moves without support. And you learn that very quickly. And so I kind of landed. I hadn't— I was on the wrong visa. The cost of accommodation had run out. I was, you know, quite a few hours outside Sydney without a car. And I wasn't going to be in the hospital I thought I was going to be in. I was going to be 40 minutes up the road road. And I remember calling my mom and she's like, just come home. I can't do that. And so I got on the internet with the BMJ careers back then, and Ron from Quantum Recruitment, um, bless him, he was my other great, um, support. Um, he's like, get yourself to Melbourne. Um, I had studied with, uh, a friend and colleague who is now a radiologist in Melbourne who'd done his medical training in Glasgow, and he very kindly put me up in his apartment. I had a pair of plastic drawers and a mattress, um, on his very nice apartment in Melbourne. And so, you know, that was how it started. And, you know, like, I only— I stayed for 12 months, um, I only ever planned to do that. I came back and tried to settle in Scotland, but I, I kind of went home and I was like, well, in Australia— in Australia, I was attracted to the emergency medicine training program. It was a lot more flexible at that point. Um, and so 2 years later I came back and the rest is history. I'm now a Scotzie.
Sharee Johnson [00:16:07]:
Yeah. So what do you think you called on in those, those, you know, you were young, it's different perhaps where on an adventure, you know, I think of my times when I was traveling around Europe, it's, it's a different feeling, right? You're traveling, obstacles become part of the story. Uh, they make it more interesting. You meet more interesting people. Is that what it felt like, or were you in some kind of panic about your job and whether you'd made the wrong or right decision?
Cheryl Martin [00:16:32]:
No, I don't think I was, interestingly. And, you know, maybe that says a little bit. I don't know. There's probably a story in that in itself. I think I was quite determined, and I think that this has been a recurring theme. I've definitely— and I think we all have naysayers that'll say, well, why do you want to do that? Why? Why would you do that? And I think I just knew that that was right for me. And I think all the experiences where you maybe push your own version of comfort, that's where the growth is. And so undoubtedly I learned a few things there. I had to wait a couple of weeks to get on the wrong visa and was rapidly running out of money. And it was in the days where the communication, I think, Skype had just started, so that was good. At some, um, we were able to, but, but I probably wasn't touching base, um, you know, with family as, as much as you would do these days.
Sharee Johnson [00:17:29]:
Um, have you become a better planner as a result of those experiences?
Cheryl Martin [00:17:31]:
Yeah, and, and I think that the other thing is you can then, and maybe that's where the, the, the kind of mentorship and paying it forward, um, 6 months later I had a friend come out and I was able to then look, get another apartment, set us up, and, you know, and then she then had her own experience. I remember her, we went to buy a car, um, for her because she had quite a commute to her job, and on the the very first morning I was doing shift work. It wasn't until the evening she called me and she said, I've broken down on the Burwood Highway with this new car.
Sharee Johnson [00:18:01]:
New secondhand car, I imagine.
Cheryl Martin [00:18:03]:
Yes, it was an 18-year-old Mitsubishi Vioni. I remember that.
Sharee Johnson [00:18:08]:
Yeah. Is there anything in all of that that you want to tell our young doctors when you're reflecting back on that time, who are, you know, in those early, those, you know, PGY 1 to 5, those early years?
Cheryl Martin [00:18:19]:
And so I think for me, that was a period of not only learning in the medical space— I actually had a really great experience in the hospital— but also personal growth and development as well. And, you know, and I, you know, I think if you have an inclination to do this, you're only going to learn. And I think we're very fortunate with a medical degree that we can work in, you know, a number of places and settings and have experiences. Um, so yeah, I mean, I, I think for me I wouldn't change any of that.
Sharee Johnson [00:18:51]:
Yeah. And I think knowing you a little bit, that you've, you know, you exist in the growth zone quite a lot, you know, and there's, there's no growth in the comfort zone. And some, some people call that the growth zone or the learning zone. Some people call it the heat zone, you know, that there has to be a little bit of heat, there has to be a bit of challenge, a bit of tension, a bit of friction to get the value out of it. That when we're in the comfort zone, it's high trust but there's not enough kind of friction to really be learning very much. And so I think you've carried that attitude on, haven't you? Is it still—
Cheryl Martin [00:19:23]:
I think I'm learning all the time, Sharee.
Sharee Johnson [00:19:26]:
Okay, so let's move to some of your other activities, Cheryl. So you're a runner, and you don't just run around an oval, you do tricky hard running up and down things. You're a trail runner, and you post a lot about your trail running and the running community. Seems to be a really important part of your, you know, your health and well-being. Can you tell us a little bit about what the running community and the running itself gives you in terms of your health and well-being?
Cheryl Martin [00:19:52]:
I thought this was very brave of you to bring running into the conversation because this could very much derail.
Sharee Johnson [00:19:58]:
Oh well, I'll do my best to keep you on the track, shall we say.
Cheryl Martin [00:20:03]:
Um, yeah, so I've You know, we haven't really talked much about identities, but certainly I've identified as a runner since I was a tween. I can still, you know, have quite vivid memories of doing the, the 3K cross-country run around Kelvingrove Park in Glasgow and getting a stitch on the Travelator, which was the one incline on that course. Um, and, you know, I think still what sticks with me is, you know, sweaty hot mess at the end and just how exhilarating that experience was for me. Um, and, you know, I didn't really have anyone round about me who were runners and whatever that meant at the time. Um, but certainly I became one that day. And, you know, I ran cross-country at school and, and, you know, a little bit in early university, and then just kind of settled into just, you know, 3 times a week running through my, you know, most of my 20s and 30s when I was training. And, and it was probably one of my other recalibration points, um, you know, post-fellowship, where I was actually a little bit deplete and felt a spat out the other end of the program that I, you know, with a narrowing of interests, which I think is something that, you know, we definitely see. And, you know, what I haven't said is that I think you, Sheree, or perhaps if, you know, the study of the doctor species was an academic subject, I've told you many times you would have double doctorates. And, you know, I think you probably see that where we, you know, maybe exclude those other parts of ourselves. And, and so rediscovering my running and the running community was part of that. So I'd done a couple of marathons when I was younger. Um, I would do, you know, a half marathon or one or two every year. Um, and then signed up for Melbourne Marathon, um, just after my fellowship exam. And at that point, I met a couple of people who were also into what is now— I now know it's trail running. I didn't know that was the thing at the time. And, you know, my other— in addition to running, and which was mostly on roads historically, I I love like hiking and climbing and you know what, my favorite thing to do, um, would be to go back to Scotland and climb what we call a Munro. So there's I think 282 Munros in Scotland. So any mountains are, uh, over 3,000 feet and you know, having a good friend, a Munro, a good day if you're lucky and a curry at the end, that's one of my favorite things to do. And then I discovered you could actually run in the mountains. And on the trails, and that this was a thing. And that, you know, now I realize there was plenty of places in my homeland I could have been doing that all along. I did go back to one of my local races a few years ago now. And so, you know, I think find community, find people. Also find a group, quite interestingly, who were quite open, you know, particularly not just, you know, running for physical health, but about their mental health. I can think of a few notable examples in you know, kind of willingness to be vulnerable and, and really support people. Um, you know, I think when you spend several hours running with people, you get to know them very well. You talk everything sublime to ridiculous. And you also have periods where, you know, that you don't feel great, and that's part of the course. And, you know, able to ride that— you might get injured. Um, you know, also, in fact, if you're running, you will inevitably get injured. And how you, um, and how, you know, and I, I saw a look I think a lot of our— and I'm, I'm talking to you, I mean, you're an expert in this space— but a lot of our, you know, the way we perform and sustain ourselves as humans, we've learned a lot from, you know, the sports and exercise world. But, um, you know, certainly a lot of those pearls translate. And in retrospect, a lot of what I've learned through running, I wish I'd applied more deliberately, um, in my clinical training through the years.
Sharee Johnson [00:23:46]:
Yeah, obviously I haven't been in clinical training in the same way as you, but I find that too. I think as we get older, we sort of perhaps appreciate more, or perhaps where I'm not sure what that is, but some wisdom in terms of noticing these pearls from music, I think too, music and sport, where, you know, people who practice hard at something understand this value of doing hard things. And of course, the neuroscience is now starting to identify where in our brain this do hard things kind of is, which circuitry is involved. And we know that practicing hard things in one domain helps us very much have the tolerance and the resilience and the capacity to keep going in another domain. So I'm just distracted by the beautiful Dolomites behind you, and I want you to just talk about that for a minute, Cheryl, because you went to Italy last year and you ran with a crew of people.
Cheryl Martin [00:24:34]:
Yeah.
Sharee Johnson [00:24:35]:
Um, and so I wonder if that's some sort of addition, you know, that this— it's like an amplification. Now I'm going on holidays doing amazing events with people who are part of my health and well-being crew. Do you just talk generally about support, I guess?
Cheryl Martin [00:24:49]:
Yeah, and look, I think also maybe just in terms of what focus and what matters and how that might change over time as well. And, you know, and I might mirror that with, you know, what, you know, my kind of experience of, you know, clinical training through the years. And, you know, I think when you— what I realized, we— so we had a great group who went, um, to— and again, it was this example of an idea that kind of grew wings and people said, oh yes, and people just, you know, committed and turned up. And, um, we had a group, you know, with a 20-year age span. So I was actually the oldest runner in our group. Um, we, we— I'd never— I've been to Italy quite a few times now, it's one of my favorite places on Earth, but I'd never actually run in the Dolomites. And so this was an ultramarathon event which was just wonderful, um, in, in many, many ways. But, you know, I, I think about, you know, the— I looked at across our different levels of kind of experience in running, and certainly, you know, speed, it, it definitely declines. And I, I don't, you know, kind of what I've learned, um, I think with age and getting slower is that you learn a lot about how you, um, you can really, you know, fuel, um, and sustain your performance over time. Um, uh, so pacing, fueling, you know, those things. You, you really want to feel strong at the end. Um, I might mirror that with, you know, some of my fellowship prep, you know, if I was— I think I've always talked about my FACEM (specialty training in emergency medicine) and how you ascend it, um, you know, if it was a mountain race, I would have started quite conservatively. I would have tried to hold it together in the middle, and then I would have brought it home hard at the end. Um, that's not what happened. I, uh, I went out really, really hard and way too enthusiastic, and I kind of started to peter out about halfway to two-thirds up, and I limped to the finish line, um, and crawled over it. Um, and, you know, I think I want a view like this. That wasn't the view I had at the end. You know, you're kind of hoping for those peak experiences, and I think that was quite disappointing to me.
Sharee Johnson [00:26:53]:
Um, can we just pause there a little bit, Cheryl? What did you do? How did you— who helped you? What happened to help you get across that line when you really were depleted and limping, as you say?
Cheryl Martin [00:27:04]:
So I think, you know, that you wanted to focus on recalibration, and that's probably been one of my more major recalibration points. And I think that's, you know, maybe common— it's not an uncommon experience. Um, you know, when you're pushing hard for something, there's a risk that you're going to overreach. Um, you know, and overreaching is part of that. And, you know, I mentioned maybe what I'd learned in retrospect, and I don't know if, if you have to learn these mistakes yourself. I don't know if, if you know, other people listening to this makes it any easier. You know, I'll just take a slight segue if it's okay. I spent a lot of my registrar years reading books, and we were talking about them recently, called Bounce Backs. So a great series by an emergency physician, Mike Weinstock, on, you know, patients that come back again. So we kind of get it wrong the first time, whatever, you know, wrong. And they're giving us another chance. And so, you know, I think when somebody does come back, that's the opportunity to stop and, you know, refocus, you know, elevate experience, you know, think again. And, you know, by reading these and reading the examples, I was hoping that, you know, that I might not make those, you know, those mistakes. You know, we might talk about error in medicine and it's really complex most of the time. But sometimes maybe you actually have to, you know, that's what we've talked about, that, you know, when things— you do have setbacks, you have challenges and things don't go as planned. That's when the growth is and that's when the learning is, even though it's hard in the moment. And so for me, again, that required stepping away. It required support of some critical friends, you know, having trusted family, peers, a few mentors You know, certainly some people that thought, what are you doing? This is crazy. But again, you kind of have to listen to yourself as well. I still had quite a few skills. I mean, if anyone has not read The Thriving Doctor, you know, I read your book and I thought, oh, this is the journey I've been on and I'm still on it. You know, you talk about those interpersonal skills. So the opportunity for introspection and intersection, actually being able to know what's happening in your own internal space, which you might switch off when you're trying to, to peak, to trying to just reach a goal. And sometimes you get lost in why you're kind of doing that, you know. And I think it was Christine who on my podcast, she said, you know, you're kind of not enjoying that, that journey, you know, there's a good chance you might not— you might get there and it's not quite what you thought it was going to be. And I think the other thing, I mean, again, I've learned a lot of things we haven't talked about in my podcast, but through my guests who've been through similar experiences, you know, this idea of doing joy first, um, and, uh, you know, not the delayed gratification that we can do to just, I will, I will finish the study session, I will do the exam, I'll get through this set of night shifts, and then I will do the fun thing rather than actually scheduling in rest. And joy, you know, the things that matter, and through, through those periods. And I've gone on a tangent there.
Sharee Johnson [00:30:21]:
That's okay. I want to come back around to your podcast, but before we leave the running— running and sustained activities like that that go over a longer period of time are fantastic opportunities for metacognition, you know, for noticing what you're thinking, raising your awareness, and sometimes for mindfulness, you know, that we're practicing mindfulness as we're plotting, you know, the cadence of your feet, for instance, as a runner. I imagine that there are times, even though you're running with other people, where there's not much talking, where you are kind of just managing your own self, your own body, and your own mind. And can you just speak to that a little bit, the power or the benefit perhaps of the metacognition, that noticing when your mind is helping you or not helping you?
Cheryl Martin [00:31:03]:
I think there's many people have said they've solved their problems at the end of a run. And, you know, I think I've been doing that for you know, many, many years now. And sometimes— so I do run still on my own. And yeah, I usually don't plan to think about anything in particular, but sometimes you will find yourself, you know, exactly what you've said, thinking about thinking. Interestingly, when I'm with other people, I do like to chat. It's actually a sign that I'm struggling physically when I have stopped talking, so it's very obvious when I'm struggling.
Sharee Johnson [00:31:39]:
You notice that with your peers as well?
Cheryl Martin [00:31:41]:
Oh yes, they know when I am quiet, I am struggling.
Sharee Johnson [00:31:45]:
But do you notice that with them too, that sometimes they're, you know, they have signals as well when they're struggling?
Cheryl Martin [00:31:51]:
Although some of them were skilled runners, you know, it's like, again, I, you know, I, I run with people I'm in awe of, you know. If you're, if you're the fastest runner in the room, you're in the wrong room if you're trying to improve. So I certainly surround myself with people who are, you know, who in terms of what they can do, you know, physically and mentally, it's really quite impressive.
Sharee Johnson [00:32:16]:
That's it. That's the other thing that's occurring to me as you're talking, this risk of comparison. I'll just maybe touch on that again, that, you know, that it's a place of— well, it kills your joy, to use the word that you've been talking about. So it's very easy to fall into— humans do that all the time— that, you know, I look at them, they're advancing sooner than me. They got a training program, I haven't got on training program. They've got this great supervisor, I haven't got a supervisor. You know, I'm not keeping up with my cohort. You know, these kinds of things. Doctors say things like that to me very regularly. Um, so again, I'm, I'm just noticing listening to you that this practice of running with other people and noticing what's happening in your own body and noticing how you are compared to you is, is perhaps another side effect, I suppose, of these, these kinds of activities outside of medicine.
Cheryl Martin [00:33:08]:
And I think, you know, we have a large— we've got a couple of decades between our group of runners. And, you know, I think that the good thing is you can pick the run to, you know, with my super fast elite friend, I can get her on the recovery phase when she's just, you know, ready to cruise, which is quite good. Um, if I'm looking to actually train for something. I, you know, I can pick the, pick the running friend that's, you know, you're gonna just push me a little bit and, and take me out of my comfort zone. Because if I was left to my own devices, I find that quite hard. But I have to say, increasingly, I'm not particularly competitive with my running. I'm, I'm there for the joy of it. Um, finally, but I think you said, you know, what you've said about comparison, and, you know, it's— what is it? It's the thief of joy, isn't it? And, and And being able to be in your own lane and comfortable with that and know, you know, what that is and what is important for you. You know, again, I think that's also something you're continually recalibrating.
Sharee Johnson [00:34:11]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm diverting all over the place, so we'll get back on track in a minute. But that's, that's having me think about values too. And, you know, we used to teach, you know, psychologists used to teach that you get your values established in your late teens. You separate from your parents and you establish which ones of their values you want to keep and which ones you want to have that distinguish you, that make you different. And the research and the teaching now is much more about values evolving and developing, just like all the other parts of us evolve and develop. And so where we might be competitive and striving in the earlier part of our life as we get into these middle years and further on, that might become, you know, it might be more about service or it might be more about community. And that these values, not that we've turned our back on ourselves or some, some, some, um, critical story that we might create for ourselves, it's that our values are evolving in the same way that all the other parts of us evolve and that they do provide really important anchors to, to where we are in the world. So let's, I want to check in, you had an injury a couple of years ago, you injured your elbow, which, you know, took a sustained effort on its, on its own to, to recover. Another point of recalibrating, what, what happened then for you in terms of—
Cheryl Martin [00:35:25]:
I'm now thinking of Andrea when we're talking about this and her shoulder. And so look, my elbow injury was, you know, it's fairly minor in the scheme of things, but, um, you know, I think for me it was quite interesting, um, probably a bit of a minor miracle that I had not fallen off a mountain before now or before then. Um, you know, I've been quite fortunate that, you know, I've mostly bounced. Um, and, you know, I mean, this is a pursuit that I choose to be involved in. This is the risks associated with it. I still think I would be more of a liability on a bike. Um, but, you know, on this particular occasion, um, I would say that technical descending is not my forte. And unfortunately, I have injured myself twice on, you know, exactly on that kind of terrain. And, you know, you actually reach mental barriers then in terms of improvement. And I got to stage where I was just progressing and then this happened. So I had a bad bounce. Um, and you know, I think because you've mentioned, I think what's interesting in the context of this conversation, and maybe I had some skills by then, so I think that's the other thing, because, um, I did kind of walk out and, you know, drove myself to my own emergency department, wrote my X-ray, and I kind of went around thinking, oh, it's just a flake off the, the olecranon. I'm sure, sure it's going to be fine. And then kind of saw it and I thought— and my first thought was, I can't fix this. Yeah, I can't do this one. I'm— this is, you know, I'm actually going to have to outsource this and I'm going to have to surrender. And I remember the kind of mental processing, looking at the X-ray thinking, okay, but I think, you know, if that had happened to me and again, fairly minor in the scheme of things, but 10 or 15 years previously, I probably would have spiraled. You know, this is a disaster. And, and, and, you know, I think, maybe, you know, by my having gone through a bit of a journey by that point, um, then, you know, that was actually, you know, I had some skills and tools to be able to think, right, I'm gonna have surgery, I'm gonna have to surrender, I'm gonna have to give in, I'm gonna have to, you know, just recover. That's— body's called it.
Sharee Johnson [00:37:32]:
So you're saying that like as if, you know, anyone can get the skills and the resources. And, and as a psychologist, I certainly believe people can get the skills and the resources. But can you tell us a little bit more about what, what were the skills that you used and the resources and, and what was involved in getting them? What are the— what were the things that you had done that you found yourself then being, I guess, grateful for having the skills and the tools?
Cheryl Martin [00:37:54]:
So I think I mentioned my kind of drop-off at fellowship, and I took a couple of years of, um, you know, opportunity to do different things, a lot of navel-gazing and, and probably soul-searching. I, you know, so I've practiced yoga for a number of years and, you know, I feel sometimes it just gets such a bad rap in our health care community these days. But I'm going to go here. I had been, you know, a student of yoga for a number of years and actually did a yoga teacher training course, a 350-hour year-long course that really was quite transformative. For me. And, you know, I think the interesting parts of that were not the physical and asana practice and, you know, getting better at doing a handstand. It was that, you know, when you've already alluded to values, I'd never actually thought about what my values were. I didn't have any idea about, you know, kind of, you know, what mattered, what my mission statement, you know, what I'm actually here on the planet for. And that was really an opportunity to do all of that in addition to, you know, we've talked about my running. The thing about running is, which is great, but, but it, you know, sometimes to actually do nothing and to be very still and alone with your thoughts and, you know, and it is really challenging. And to do that, you know, that kind of more meditation type practice, which I, you know, I still struggle with. I do like the movement side even of yoga practice to get into that introspection that we talked about and the interception to actually get into to body and space. And so that was one part of it. I also changed jobs at the time. I did a few different jobs. I was doing some work in sports medicine. I did some training. I did, you know, some other occupational visa jobs, you know, things to give me space beyond shift work to actually do that. And I had my fellowship at the time. I still did some locum emergency medicine through that period. Quite interestingly, I kind of went to my, you know, one of the conferences at the time. And, you know, I think day 3 was entirely devoted to doctors' well-being. And this is back in about 2013, '14. And, and a lot of it was very much focused on individuals at that point and positive psychology. And there was a bit of meditation and mindfulness. You know, I think we've both had many, many conversations since and widened the net. You know, I think had I had, you know, a Sharee Johnson at that point, that would have undoubtedly helped. But I had to outsource some of that. You know, I think, I mean, I don't know if you mind me segueing into, I mean, I know you were going to maybe ask me about the podcast. Yeah. But, you know, I think again, an example of just because you've seen somebody else go through something doesn't mean you won't. It doesn't really protect you from those experiences. And, you know, I think I've been a fan of the podcast genre since I think the first generation of podcasting in the early 2000s. But even thinking, you know, before that, when I was again a tween, you know, seeing my dad kind of mid to late 30s and kind of going through that period. And, you know, I call it the big squeeze, the 30s, 40s, you know, when you, you're doing work and family and parents and, you know, all of those things where it's glass balls in the air, let the rubber ones drop. But remember, you're a glass ball too, and, you know, constantly recalibrating which is which. And so, you know, kind of saw him go through a bit of a journey at that point. And he used to listen to what I call professional and personal development tapes. When we were on the drive to school. There was a lot of Stephen Covey, there was Peter Drucker, and there was a lot because that was the kind of time when a lot of the business, you know, time management and stress, you know, kind of regulation and management were coming to the fore. And a bit of Deepak Chopra, so that more holistic lens. And so, I think that left quite an impression on me. I have to say that, you know, that my dad's never been on a yoga mat, but through that period, he, you know, I would say he practices yoga because it's that, you know, being able to kind of union body and mind and calibration, you know, this whole theme of this conversation has been calibration and didn't necessarily protect me from, you know, doing the same. And I actually think many of us are vulnerable to this repeatedly through this period. I get, you know, in my clinical work, I get to see that, I get to hold space for that. Um, which is actually kind of coming full circle because, you know, this, this is something that, you know, I think you, you kind of, when you have a bit of lived experience, which many of us do, it's very relevant.
Sharee Johnson [00:42:44]:
I think that the critical thing is awareness and, and reflection. And, you know, the medical board says that that's a core competency that it wants doctors to develop. It doesn't necessarily tell us how to do it, how people should do that, but they definitely say they want doctors to be doing that. This, um, process of noticing what we're doing, and you know, you're talking about the yoga, the union between mind and body, that, that process of being able to say what's happening in my body right now and how do I respond to it, rather than just that reactive way of being. That seems to me the difference. And can we learn it from hearing other people's stories? I think we can learn that something's possible or we can open up our curiosity about, I wonder if that could be true for me, you know, that resonance. And certainly I've seen senior doctors telling their stories of distress or burnout or trauma to junior doctors, and it having a very big impact on the junior doctors. I think there is a question of developmental— something about developmental here, adult development, that I can hear as a young person an older person story and I can resonate and I can be impressed by it or worried about it, I don't necessarily believe it's going to happen to me. And so lots of people say to me, why don't I do more work with young doctors? And we have tried lots of different things with junior doctors. Most of our clients are mid-career doctors because they've got a lot to hang it on. Cheryl Martin: Very interesting. So why do you think that is? Sharee Johnson: Well, I, I just think that there's a beautiful thing about youth, and sometimes I call it the arrogance of youth. And I don't mean to insult any young doctors who are listening or any young people in general. It's a beautiful, wonderful thing about that part of our life that we feel brave, that we feel adventurous, that we feel like we could. And as we get older, we, you know, put on all the onion skins, that we have a few wounds and a few scars, and we start to get a bit cautious. Or, you know, we have responsibilities, and so we get a bit more cautious, and so we perhaps lose that adventurous this confident spirit that we have in our early 20s. But while we're busy doing that in our early 20s, we're not necessarily, um, realistic about how stuff can happen to us. By the time you get to be 40, 45, 50, stuff has happened. You know, people have had relationship breakdowns, people have lost jobs or got a job that they want and find out that they actually don't like it, or they're not willing to put enough effort in to do it. You know, it's not what they thought it was. And so that starts to change our identity, doesn't it? Who we think we are and what we think we're capable of. You've used two interesting words, Cheryl. Earlier you talked about identity and that shift, or that discovering, rediscovering your running identity. And you also used a word there before, a surrender. You said surrender twice. Can you talk a little bit about why you think that's important, this ability to be able to surrender?
Cheryl Martin [00:45:45]:
Yeah, I mean, it's, um, yeah, we are, we have our finite locus of control and, um, you know, I think being able to realize that, what is it, I think Pema Chodron says this, um, really best, you know, um, you are the sky, everything else is just the weather. I love that. And, you know, I think, and again, maybe my yoga practice kind of helped me think a little bit more about surrender. Um, You know, because that's certainly, you know, what's the most difficult pose? It's, uh, shavasana. And that, that's a pose of surrender. And actually, that's the hardest one.
Sharee Johnson [00:46:22]:
Um, and it just is— for people that don't know shavasana, can you just explain?
Cheryl Martin [00:46:26]:
So that's the pose at the end. The other name is corpse pose, where you, you have to lie down. And it's quite common that people will fall asleep and snore in that pose. And, you know, to be honest, if that's what you need, then that's what you But to be able to—
Sharee Johnson [00:46:40]:
it's the pose of vulnerability though, isn't it? You know, you're lying flat on your back with your arms out open, you know, exposed, and I think your belly is exposed.
Cheryl Martin [00:46:48]:
There are even more vulnerable poses, um, that, you know, are like that when you have heart opening, hip opening, um, you know, that, that you, you kind of explore through the physical practice of yoga. Um, and those actually can be very uncomfortable poses for people initially and, and And, you know, depending on, you know, what that past experience, the trauma history has been. And I think, you know, that, that in itself, you know, you kind of learn that as an individual. And I've done a bit of teaching and, you know, as a teacher as well. And just in terms of how you cue people safely and surrender. Yeah. You know, I think it's, it's again, I think that's a constant recalibration, isn't it? And it's depending on circumstance.
Sharee Johnson [00:47:35]:
Yeah, it's such a beautiful thing that you've introduced into the conversation because, um, you know, being a health professional, in our roles of as health professional, we're so often in control. You know, we are the person in the room with the patient who has the power to the extent of we know how the system works and what's available and what will happen next. Um, and it's a struggle for health professionals to be in that patient or the less powerful position. Go on, you want to say something?
Cheryl Martin [00:48:06]:
I wanted to explore something with you if that's okay, because I have been kind of thinking about this and I thought it might be an opportunity in this conversation. Um, so I think you, you talk a lot about the tenets of perfectionism, stoicism, competition, and you have to read The Thriving Doctor. Um, and you know, I've listened to many of your interviews. Had many conversations with you about this. And, you know, I think we've said before that some of, you know, what makes us, you know, good at the work is also in it. And I think this, you know, translates across many areas, um, can also be to our detriment, um, personally. But I think also, you know, I think it was Graham Walker on my podcast recently, we were just talking about— I don't know if you listen to it, um, you kind of rely on— you actually want someone to be that little you know, have that little baseline anxiety, that little bit of perfectionism that's like, something isn't adding up here. I want to think about this. I want to go home and, you know, it's all very well to say we're going to set boundaries around work and we're going to leave work. But, you know, I've never been a person who can clearly do that very well. I've tried and practiced. But actually thinking about, you know, the people I see, their stories, and that's actually an important way well, you know, it's part of what I do as a doctor, and I think it's important. And so how you kind of do that but still, you know, create the boundaries and the space around that, I think that's a constant struggle. And I don't know, you get the opportunity to explore this with many of us.
Sharee Johnson [00:49:40]:
I don't know if you have any thoughts. Well, it's so individual, isn't it? I think there's a active choice in all of these things. And it comes back to the metacognition before, that when we're aware of, you know, I'm still thinking about that patient today, I've been thinking about them all night, it's 3 o'clock in the morning, I'm still thinking about them, you know, that's rumination. And so we want to distinguish rumination or catastrophizing, or, you know, sometimes we're generalizing beyond where we really should generalize. We want to distinguish that from caring. Cheryl Martin: Yeah, great. Sharee Johnson:I think that's about awareness, and sometimes we can do that ourselves. We can be journal writing, or we can be going for a long run, or we can, you know, find that ourselves and notice that ourselves. And it's a practice. The more we practice this metacognition, this awareness, the better we can get at it. But sometimes we can't see it ourselves. Sometimes we need another person, a peer, a friend, a partner, the dog, our coach, our supervisor. Sometimes we need a formal process, sometimes it can be an informal process where we give voice to this, where we say, I can't stop thinking about this patient, or I, I've came back to see this patient at 9 o'clock at night and I wouldn't normally do that, but I needed to, you know, to, to start to understand what actually is operant then.
Cheryl Martin [00:51:08]:
And just to pick up on that, I mean, I think I definitely ruminated a lot early in my career, and I'm still prone to it. But I probably now have— again, it's tools and skills— that, you know, what we'll call collegial oversight and that really critical peer support. I have a little network of people that I can then call, discuss. And I think, you know, when I think about that in the setting of, you know, hospital safety and clinical error. And, you know, I think that's kind of interesting because we need a whole support network. You know, I think I did a safety talk a couple of years ago when I was looking at the WHO guidelines on this. And, you know, the actual support for the clinicians involved, it was a kind of short paragraph. And I think we've evolved a lot in terms of open disclosure and, you know, really trying to not blame individuals and think about systems. But I still feel that that's an area we still could do much better. And I think just thinking just about, you know, kind of risk and comfort zones and failure and setbacks, you know, the kind of dichotomy of seeing the way we approach that in medicine then and in life and how that can translate. And, you know, I think the work of Professor Amy Edmondson on this topic, you know, kind of just thinking about failure and what it means and the different types. So, you know, I think we in medicine, we think a lot about, you know, the simple failures, which are the kind of never events, you know, the kind of wrong site surgery. And, you know, we should have good, robust clinical governance systems to support and, you know, make those very, very, you know, zero is what we aim for. Whereas a lot of, you know, error that we see in medicine or failure, whatever, for, you know, inverted commas, is complex and pervasive and it involves humans and systems and, and And, you know, we talk about the Swiss cheese when all of those holes line up. But the bit that we don't perhaps talk about enough is this concept of intelligent failure. And, you know, we can transplant hearts because of intelligent failure. You know, all the innovation, the growth, you know, that's the bit where we— we've got to remember that in healthcare, that actually really matters too. So that should give us some courage to translate into our lives in terms of how we kind of go forward.
Sharee Johnson [00:53:30]:
For those who don't know Amy Edmondson's work, we'll put those two books, her two books, uh, yeah, in the show notes.
Cheryl Martin [00:53:37]:
Um, both books, that's The Fearless Organization.
Sharee Johnson [00:53:41]:
Yeah. So let's, uh, move along a little bit. I really want you to tell us a bit more about the podcast. In particular, I want you to tell us, you know, why you started a podcast. You told us that you had a love of, you know, a love of the, the medium. What was it in 2020 that led to you saying, right, I'm going to do this. I want to talk to some people and I want to do that with an audience. What happened? What was that recalibration?
Cheryl Martin [00:54:01]:
So I'll just say that I thought about starting that podcast for many years before that, and there was a lot of procrastination. Um, I think the, the 2020 will probably already, uh, ring some bells amongst your audience that it was the, the COVID pandemic fueled a lot of innovation startups. Um, you know, people who had put off projects for, you know, a lot of time. I think we were also able to innovate at quite impressive scale in a number of areas because we cut red tape, but we also, you know, had some time and, um, you know, to be able to do that when we were, uh, social distancing at home. So, you know, I think that was actually something I thought about, and that really just— I had no excuses anymore. I didn't have the excuse that I have no time to do it.
Sharee Johnson [00:54:43]:
A lot of doctors are shy though about media, so can you say a little bit about with it?
Cheryl Martin [00:54:50]:
Yeah. And again, maybe I'm learning as I go still. I, you know, so my podcast is really capturing mostly conversations that I was having, you know, it's not giving clinical advice, but it's really about, you know, a lot of what you'll find in a lot of your work, I'm sure, those what I'm going to call core skills. You know, we actually get to talk about those that will not have the word soft skills used. And to have conversations with, with actually a number of people, not just clinicians now, and, you know, what we might learn in terms of, you know, from some of their stories. I mean, I think I've already said, can we learn from other people's stories? But I definitely think I have learned a lot from so many of my guests. And I think that, you know, it's a bit of a selfish passion project in many ways because you know, it fuels my curiosity and, and, and learning and growth. So, um, been very fortunate to—
Sharee Johnson [00:55:48]:
so the podcast, I don't think I said its name, is The Mind Full Medic, and it's extraordinary, Cheryl. I mean, the guests that you've had on there, and 3 that come to mind, you know, just powerhouses really, are kind of— or 2 of them have been definitely idols or mentors at a distance to me, which is Amy Edmondson and Bob Chapman. I mean, they couldn't believe that you had Bob Chapman on your podcast. That was an outstanding conversation. Please, if you're listening to this and you haven't listened to The Mind Full Medic, really, you could listen to every episode and get so much out of it, but those two in particular. And of course, the other one is our mutual friend Jonathan Fisher, who you had a beautiful conversation with, I think not last year, the year before.
Cheryl Martin [00:56:27]:
and with yourself, you haven't mentioned that.
Sharee Johnson [00:56:30]:
And it's very early days, right?
Cheryl Martin [00:56:32]:
And I know, and I, I reached out and I just kept hearing your name and so many of my colleagues that you had helped. As I say, I didn't have a Sharee Johnson, you know, now 13 years ago, but I thought I have to, have to meet this amazing woman and coach of doctors who's helped so many of my colleagues. So thank you. And I know you've continued to do that.
Sharee Johnson [00:56:55]:
Yes, my pleasure. So you talked about joy earlier, and I think that you've just said that the podcast is a passion project. And I wonder if there's any reflection you might make out loud for the audience, not just the doctors, anybody who's listening about this, like the value that comes from having a passion project. A lot of people will say, I haven't got time for that, or I don't have the skills for that, or I don't know where to start, or, you know, I've got all these other obligations that I need to attend to. What's been the real benefit or value for you personally in having these passion projects? The podcast being one of them?
Cheryl Martin [00:57:33]:
I mean, I think in addition to, I said, the learning, it's the connections, it's the people that I've met. And, you know, I think that the kind of beauty for me is that they have become friends, many of them. And, you know, I have people across the world and I think it really— and I think maybe COVID, you know, as a catalyst for that, because a lot of my conversations are like this, they're hybrid or via Zoom and um, you know, I've since gone and met people in real places, and, and it's all— it's, you know, I think what's surprised me is that after many virtual conversations, you feel like you know people, and then you can just quite easily sit down and, and just continue the conversation you've been having. Um, so I can think of a few people that, that stand out. I'm sure you could name them too.
Sharee Johnson [00:58:17]:
Well, I think the other thing that's really interesting that I'm really enjoying with in this conversation, when we're talking about the running and now we're talking the podcast is, you know, this, the breadth. And maybe I can move to in 2023, I think you started an MBA, Global MBA with Melbourne Business School, where there were very few health professionals in your cohort. And I just, you know, I think this often it's been my experience that doctors have a very narrow, um, or doctors who don't have these extra other things going on are very immersed in the doctor world, in the medical world. And there seems to me a loss in a person's experience or capacity to really feel alive and fulfilled if it's all about work. And medicine can very easily invite you in to give your whole life and all of your energy to it and to lose those other opportunities. So I think it's a beautiful role modeling. It's, you know, it's kind of quintessential the way that you're We're describing your experience or your life where medicine's definitely a core. It's taking a lot of your time and effort and energy. And then there are these overlapping ways, these other things that, that have some medicine in them.
Cheryl Martin [00:59:30]:
Like you run with some other medical friends, but I run with a lot of doctors and that's peer support on the run. And, you know, I mean, I think you can't help talking shop.
Sharee Johnson [00:59:38]:
Yeah, of course, of course. But let's move into this, this other experience of the MBA.
Cheryl Martin [00:59:42]:
What, what happened with it? Yeah. And look, for me, and you know, look, I was in a place where I was able to do this and there's a lot of privilege associated with that. But it's something I had thought about again for a number of years. Again, those percolating thoughts. And, and again, I had a few people say, why would you want to do that? So, you know, the naysayers, you know, fortunately I've learned to switch switch those voices off. And yeah, look, for me it was, you know, I mean, I don't think you have to do an MBA to have a different and transformative experience, but for me it really was, you know, I think it was an opportunity to, again, it's the lifelong learning, it's to be around some really interesting, kind of driven, enthusiastic people and go to new places, learn new things. You know, I think the other part of it that I was afforded, and again, back to what you said about self-reflection, you know, I think my program director said this is an opportunity not only to, you know, to actually connect with, you know, people outside your own kind of profession and discipline and life experience, but also to do a lot of deep reflection and navel-gazing. So there was a lot of reflective work part of that. And we had to do— that was really, you know, part of that assessment process was, you know, each module, a reflective assignment, and then for some of the overseas modules, quite in-depth, you know, 5,000 words of navel-gazing and self-reflection. So, you know, I kind of think that my program director probably knows most of us better than we know ourselves, having, you know, kind of really— and the way, you know, that's what you're privy to in your clinical work as well, or your professional work, you know, where people can actually share all of those things.
Sharee Johnson [01:01:35]:
Do you have a different view? Did you see some different— you know, I often think that our life or our personhood is like a diamond with lots of different facets. It depends which kind of side we're looking at, which face we're looking at. That— I love that. So maybe health is like that too. Did you look back at health? Did you look over at health from your position in the MBA with those other folks who weren't medical and see some new things.
Cheryl Martin [01:01:59]:
I couldn't help, you know, do everything through a healthcare lens, um, which I think was great because, you know, how do we learn from outside ourselves in health? And, you know, I think what was so beautiful about that experience is you brought a group together and you, you kind of, you know, you get to kind of play and experiment with different ideas. And somebody says, well, we do it this way in our, you know, environment And have you thought about this? And then, you know, occasionally you have to solve a problem together and you realize you've got somebody who, you know, might actually know all the answers, but there's somebody also very quiet who really thinks left of field and has that something that might actually be quite game-changing to the whole equation. And how do you get that voice out? So, we all got, you know, really to kind of think about, you know, how, you know, maybe we haven't talked much about leadership, but, you know, it's a good way to kind of in a safe environment to experiment with that and how you hold space and that you don't have to be the expert as the leader, but how do you get the best out of the people around about you? How do you get the ideas, the voices, the teams and create something better than each as individuals could? So I think that was really a great experience.
Sharee Johnson [01:03:12]:
It's the diversity model, isn't it? That, you know, the diverse experience creates, can create something new.
Cheryl Martin [01:03:18]:
And I think again, a bit like yoga, the MBA now also gets, you know, you're gonna have, you know, I think for me, it came at the right time. It was great. I'm still, I'm gonna not forget that experience. And I'm hopefully going to keep learning from it. And I've made lifelong connections, which is also the wonderful thing about it.
Sharee Johnson [01:03:40]:
Can you tell us a story of one person that somehow influenced you or led to a recalibration?
Cheryl Martin [01:03:47]:
She won't mind me sharing this story, and so I'll not name her, but we have spoken about this a few times. And I think it was back to that kind of group dynamic. I am, you know, medical brain. I'm actually quite qualitative in how I think about things, which may not surprise you. And I was working together on a project that I was going to be presenting with a very, you know, super smart, intelligent— the engineer brain fascinates me. Very quantitative engineer, very much detail-oriented. And we clashed, quite frustratingly to both of us. And that was really quite a struggle. Because up to that point, I hadn't really had much in the way of, you know, if you want to say conflict and kind of lean into that. And we worked through it. And we produced something that we're both really proud of. And we've talked about it since, that, you know, neither of us as individuals could have come up with what we ultimately produced. And it was hard to do that, but we had to work together, and we had to realize we were coming from very different perspectives, um, and that was very uncomfortable. So I think that was one of the, the things that, that stood out.
Sharee Johnson [01:05:02]:
How did you manage that, Cheryl? What were you saying or doing to you inside of yourself to keep working on that project with that So you can imagine I went for a run at some point through that. Long runs every day.
Cheryl Martin [01:05:16]:
What else? But then realized that was not gonna, that was not gonna get us any further forward. So yeah, no, I think maybe a bit of surrender again, and also, but, but listening. It's like kind of, I mean, it's, it's really again recalibrating, um, what are we both contributing, what are we trying to achieve, what's the goal, and how How do we do this together? Um, and so that we can both bring out the best of ours and contribute to make it, you know, something, you know, much better than we could produce on our own.
Sharee Johnson [01:05:45]:
I'm hearing that thing that we heard earlier about intention, that kind of really active choice that I, you know, I chose to be here and I want to be in this program and I'm, I've got to find a way forward with this situation.
Cheryl Martin [01:05:57]:
And look, again, you know, this is the beauty of something like that. It's like simulation. You get, you know, the stakes are not real. And so, you know, I think you get to play and practice at the discomfort. And, you know, I mean, how otherwise are you doing? I mean, I think still the best way to learn is, you know, to do it, but to be able to be a bit more intentional. And I think, you know, again, some of those skills hopefully translate.
Sharee Johnson [01:06:28]:
I think I feel like we've come full circle in our conversation. We're back around to the comfort zone and the learning zone. So, um, I wonder, uh, just give me a minute. Oh yes, I do want to ask you about the Dr. Wellbeing thing before we finish. So before we finish, Cheryl, we're really running out of time now, but I want to ask you about, um, the Dr. Wellbeing. You know, you mentioned that I came on your podcast and we That was in 2021, and, you know, we were talking an awful lot then— COVID was happening— about doctor wellbeing and healthcare workers in general's wellbeing. And I felt very excited at that time that it was finally fully properly on the table, was my experience. And we're, you know, we're 5 years on, we've made it through COVID, we've all had lots of amazing experiences through that time. And we're still talking about doctor wellbeing, healthcare wellbeing. I'm not sure that we've really made that much progress. I think it's, it's, um, okay to talk about. It's easier to talk about. It's more on the agenda now. In terms of actual real change, um, perhaps doctors feel a little freer to shape-shift and have portfolio careers, perhaps. That might be a real thing. Um, I still hear many, many of the same stories that I was hearing 10 years ago in coaching. I wonder if, you know, if you could, we don't have a magic wand, but if there were one or two things that you thought would significantly shift the needle in some way, what, where's your thinking go? Yeah.
Cheryl Martin [01:08:08]:
So, you know, I spent a lot of time thinking about this and I find this still a really hard question. And, you know, I've kind of toggled from, I told you my individual kind of story, and to really thinking more about systems and teams. And, you know, that's where a lot of my emphasis is and focus has been over a number of years. And I do think there's pockets of, you know, really excellent achievements. I still think, you know, how we can take some of those examples, you know, I'm very much, you know, how do we take that? How do we take the example, pilot, iterate, and scale in our own environment, knowing that, you know, without having to reinvent the wheel every time. And there are so many of those. But then I keep coming back again full circle to individuals. And I think the work that you do, I love this word agentic because you are giving agency to us and you're helping us to develop those core intra and interpersonal skills because the system is made up of people and we make the system and it takes a critical number and, you know, kind of elevation of voice and maybe some other skills. I mean, I think that what I struggle with is maintaining momentum. And I think many of us who have been doing this for some time do because, you know, sometimes if you particularly have some individuals who are doing great work and we've not really thought about succession planning, you know, it could just take a, you know, them to have to leave or step back or change of other leadership or funding and things fall apart. And it's probably the first thing that goes. And I think that's the kind of concern. It's still maybe an added extra, not really something that we do as core business.
Sharee Johnson [01:09:53]:
You don't know it, but I feel like you kind of hit me in the heart a bit then because we've had multiple conversations, multiple different colleges and employers about piloting, you know, group coaching programs and multiple people having coaching at the same time with a group of coaches but individually to see if those kinds of things make any difference. Do they shift the needle in terms of doctor voice or doctor agency or, you know, do we identify thematic skills that are missing in those kinds of processes? And I can think of half a dozen times off the top of my head where the person has that we're building relationship with has gone on maternity leave or has been made redundant or has moved to a different employer in some shape or other, and that progress that we thought we made— your champion has gone, your sponsor's gone. Yeah, so, you know, yeah, I really felt that one.
Cheryl Martin [01:10:48]:
And I think you're asking all those right— they are all the right questions.
Sharee Johnson [01:10:53]:
Yeah, so, okay, well, I want to finish on a happier note. The system struggle goes on, and I think like like you, there are times when I surrender and there are times when I feel like, no, right, let's get back amongst it. And it is a collective voice thing. So when we're thinking about the infinite game, we're thinking about how the game goes on way beyond any of us individually. That actually gives me a lot of hope. When I was first coaching doctors, you know, there were very few other coaches working with doctors. Plenty of coaches around, but very few focusing with clinical staff. And now there are lots and lots of coaches working with doctors and lots of doctors interested in what is coaching and can it add value. So, you know, when you get in your helicopter and you get that bigger picture view, I think we can see, we can see progress at the moment.
Cheryl Martin [01:11:39]:
You're right. Um, I was talking about, you know, this very same concept to a colleague recently. Um, yeah, it's progress is not linear.
Sharee Johnson [01:11:49]:
No, that's exactly right.
Cheryl Martin [01:11:50]:
So I've got the visual image now of the mountains where you see the person who's just got to the summit and then they look up. Oh, no, this is not—
Sharee Johnson [01:11:59]:
there's 10 more. I thought you were going to say that sometimes we're standing on a mountain and we can see so clearly the other mountain and the other person on the other mountain. We can't see where we're going, but we can see the other mountain. Yeah. Okay, so as we're finishing up, thank you so much for your time. We could really— I could just talk to you all day. Um, please, if you're listening, uh, get onto the Mindful Medic podcast. It's just a treasure trove. Do you, as a way of finishing, Cheryl, do you have any particular mantras? Is there something that you go around reminding yourself of when you're in the thick of a time that looks like it's going to need— recalibration is going to be required? What do you say? How do you keep yourself in the game in those moments?
Cheryl Martin [01:12:44]:
Yes, the two things. I mean, I think the progress is not linear is important. And I think about this even in my clinical practice when I share the injury recovery. There's a great BMJ article or sports— I think it was a sports medicine BMJ, um, the map of, you know, what we think it should look like and then what it actually looks like. So we've got the linear line and then we've got the, you know, but so, so that is life. It's not just, you know, injury recovery. That, that is, um, how we progress. But I think the other thing, and, you know, I'm very conscious I do not want to be the first person to swear on your podcast, so I'm going to amend this slightly.
Sharee Johnson [01:13:18]:
But it's, no, would you— is it an unfair stereotype for me to say you're not a true ED doctor if you don't?
Cheryl Martin [01:13:24]:
Or a Scots woman, I don't know. Um, uh, know your stuff, give us stuff, take no stuff, stuff happens. And you can imagine you can replace the word stuff. Um, but I think that's an important kind of reminder to me. It's the rules of medicine, it's the rules of life. Um, that, that occasionally, you know, the, the cold brain will happen, but it, you know, if you're If you're passionate about what you do, you're deliberate, you accept that there's going to be setbacks. And, you know, I think doing anything with purpose, you know, we didn't really get to talk much about that. But, you know, I think one of the episodes I might just highlight is the one with Dr. Colin West, who talks a lot about— we talked about values, meaning, value, and purpose. But the MBA take on that is your minimum viable product. And I think in any one moment, You know, what is the next step? What is the minimal viable product? You don't have to have solved everything tomorrow. You know, one more step.
Sharee Johnson [01:14:22]:
Well, it's an absolute gift of my life to have crossed paths with you, and I hope we continue to keep crossing.
Cheryl Martin [01:14:27]:
No, that privilege is mine.
Sharee Johnson [01:14:29]:
Thank you for being here today, Cheryl, and for all of your work in the world to help us all understand healthcare and how we can take care of each other.
Cheryl Martin [01:14:36]:
Thank you for all for the work you do with my colleagues.
Sharee Johnson [01:14:42]:
Okay, well, that was a fantastic conversation with Cheryl. I felt joyful the whole time I was talking with her. I noticed that we're both smiling a lot, so I hope that you were smiling too as you were listening to some of her stories. You know, the young doctor coming out to Australia with the fantasy in mind about how it was all going to be, ending up sleeping on the blow-up bed, uh, an old friend who could put her up while she sorted out what she was going to do, and her mum on the other end of the phone saying, please just come home. You know, the recalibration that she went through when she rediscovered her running and working out how to put that back into her life and the benefit of that, starting a podcast, being involved in many other portfolio areas in preventative medicine now as well as emergency medicine. I think Cheryl's story hopefully can give many of you courage or inspiration, or perhaps just some joy about really adding some variety into your medical life. Your skills are very transferable, and certainly if there's something that you have a curiosity about, a passion for, let's see if we can help you find a way into that. Talk about it with your friends and, you know, dare to dream. See you next time. May you be well. The content in this podcast is not intended to constitute or be a substitute for professional medical or psychological advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or other qualified healthcare professional This podcast represents the views of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect those of any entity we work with or for.
