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Sharee Johnson: A really important conversation today that I'm really proud to bring to, the audience in a timely fashion. So we will be publishing this episode on Thursday. Today is, Tuesday, the 25th of August. This conversation with Dr. Simon Judkins, who is the current President of the Victorian AMA, uh, is the usual Recalibrating with Sharee Johnson conversation.
Sharee Johnson: We [00:01:00] talk about a lot of things, Simon's, background. He works as an emergency doctor, so we talk about prevention being better than a cure. We talk about climate change. In particular, we talk about psychological safety for doctors at work and the importance of our workplace conditions that we work in.
Sharee Johnson: And the reason that we're particularly focusing on that, and we have the early release of the podcast, is because the doctors are trying to negotiate a new EBA with the Victorian Government that seems to be stalled, or, um, has at least led to this moment in time where there are rolling industrial protected action stoppages for doctors in Victoria.
Sharee Johnson: , As we were meeting , doctors from Monash Health, Victoria's biggest health network, and Eastern Health were stopping work for four hours . Last week, the major centers in the west and the city center, stopped for four hours and more of those protected industrial actions are [00:02:00] planned.
Sharee Johnson: The doctors in Victoria don't have a current EBA. The, the EBA expired in February, and despite many, many meetings, as you'll hear Simon describe, we don't have any agreement for our doctors. So they are working at the moment without a contract, essentially, with their employer, who is the Victorian Government.
Sharee Johnson: I think that we all need, as potential patients and, uh, taxpayers in Victoria, to be very concerned about this situation and the distress all of the stressful things that our doctors are working under difficult conditions. And the sooner this can be resolved, the better.
Sharee Johnson: So I hope that this conversation is helpful to the healthcare workers who are listening. I really hope that this conversation can be of benefit to the, the general public, that we can, um, seek to understand how we can support our doctors and how we can encourage our government to get on with, uh, some agreement with our doctors so that our doctors can get back to providing care for us in a [00:03:00] way that feels safe for them.
Sharee Johnson: Simon left us with a really beautiful reminder, I think. He said, "It's more important to have a champion team than it is to have a team of champions." And I think if we could all go forward with that, we might find, um, uh, everybody feels a bit better about what they're doing in healthcare.
Sharee Johnson: I'm very grateful to Simon for the time he has given us today for this conversation in what is a very stressful time at the moment with a lot going on, and I hope that you all can, uh, show your gratitude to the medical people who are, um, in your lives looking after you. Check in with them, ask them how they are, and, that we can collectively encourage our, government to get on with signing some kind of agreement with our doctors.
Sharee Johnson: Dr. Simon Judkins is an emergency physician who has been working in public hospitals his whole career in tertiary facilities and now in regional Victoria. During that time, he has been the president of the Australasian College of Emergency Medicine, [00:04:00] ACEM.
Sharee Johnson: He has worked in roles advocating for mental health reform, gender equity, regional and rural healthcare access, and the impacts of climate change on community health and on our healthcare systems. He is the current president of the AMA Victoria
Sharee Johnson: As you heard in the introduction, Simon is the current president of the Victorian AMA, and we'll get to that. But before we do that, uh, let's welcome Simon in and hear a little bit about his, , medical life. Hello, Simon.
Dr Simon Judkins: Hello, how are you? Thank you so much for, uh, having me on.
Sharee Johnson: It's really great to have you here in the thick of all sorts of things. You've been a doctor for nearly as long as I've been a psychologist, I'm guessing. So I think there's been plenty of opportunities for recalibrating. Can you tell us- Mm ... a little bit about your early medical life? What brought you to medicine?
Dr Simon Judkins: Well, my, my grandfather was a GP. Mm-hmm. Um, and, um, he... So when I was, you know, growing up through high school, .. i, I was really quite, um, [00:05:00] enamored by his career and his stories and, and the work that he used to do, , he was a, a, a GP that worked out of, the eastern sort of Melbourne, out of Box Hill, region.
Dr Simon Judkins: I was, when we were young, he was still practicing, um, and, uh, worked with a lot of people that I, uh, later, uh, had professional, uh, a professional career with, like Ed Brettnell, who anybody who's done emergency medicine would understand Ed Brettnell was one of the founders of the, um, Australasian College for Emergency Medicine, and a real, um, uh, icon of, of, of Box Hill Hospital and Box Hill, um, well, it's called Eastern Health now, but, you know, Box Hill Hospital.
Dr Simon Judkins: But, but he was, a G- really community-based GP who did h- house calls. I remember him, you know, with his, uh, jacket on and his vest and his, you know, all dressed up with his doctor's bag and, you know, we'd go over to his place on a weekend for, for lunch or just a visit, and he'd have to pop out to go and see one of his patients and, you know, it just seemed to me that [00:06:00] that level of, um, commitment to his, his community and his practice, um, was really something that, um, impacted me, obviously in a really positive way.
Dr Simon Judkins: And I think that was my sort of calling. Um, I really sort of wanted to be a bit like him. Um, interestingly, back in the day, I can't remember the exact date, he was also president of AMA Victoria. I think it was still the British Medical Association back then. Um, and so, you know, there's a, obviously a link there and a certain amount of, you know, um, uh, pride that I have that, you know, when I go to the boards , in the AMA council room that I can see his name, name there.
Dr Simon Judkins: Um, and, uh, and it's a really sort of proud moment for, for me, and I'm sure that he would be quite impressed by that as well. I hope he would, I'm sure he would. Um, so that was my, I guess my, uh, inspiration, um, to, to really pursue a medical career.
Sharee Johnson: And so did you know straight out of school? Did you go into medical school from, from high school?
Dr Simon Judkins: Yeah. Yeah, pretty much. Um, you know, it was, the path was, [00:07:00] is very different, like, nowadays. I, um, I went straight from, um, to school, uh, yeah, into medical school at Monash, um, late last century. It sounds like a long, long time ago now. Um, and, uh, and really, you know, had a great, uh, a time at, at university. Um, met some amazing people.
Dr Simon Judkins: Have some amazing colleagues and, you know, you develop lifetime friends. One of the things that's been really beautiful about, you know, I'm, I'm currently, um, up in Echuca. Um, I still live in Melbourne, but I, I work in, uh, in Echuca. I run the emergency department up here, so I spend a couple of days a week up here.
Dr Simon Judkins: But coming up to Echuca, you know, bumping into friends that, you know, I'd been through medical school with who are now, GPs, , and specialists working in regional Victoria. So you know, you keep on bumping into people that you know along the way. And it doesn't feel like we've missed a beat.
Dr Simon Judkins: It's quite amazing. You see somebody 20 years later and we're still talking about the same stories, and still laugh at the same jokes and things that happened at university. I think it's a bit sad. I mean, my boys, my kids go to, to university, and it's a very, very different beast now.
Dr Simon Judkins: I think, um, [00:08:00] you know, there was a, a pretty much, I think we had a, a sort of golden era of university back in that day. And, uh, um, you know, I'm hoping that they, they, you know, uh, uh, experience more of what we experienced. It was a really fun time.
Sharee Johnson: Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I've noticed that with my kids too. I think, you know, post-COVID, they started university during COVID, and so- Yeah
Sharee Johnson: uh, there wasn't that communal, um, excitement that there was at university when I was there. Mm.
Sharee Johnson: Campuses were empty. It's quite a different experience. Yeah. And what about emergency medicine, Simon? When did you know, or how did you come to emergency medicine?
Dr Simon Judkins: Um, I, I did my intern year, um, was at Monash, uh, Medical Center. Um, and, uh, back then, I think it was, um, Moorabbin Hospital, um, was still in existence, still had a small emergency department. Um, did a little bit of work, uh, I went down in regional Victoria. I was down, sort of Moe Traralgon way, down there. Um, but I did start off, initially I thought I might enjoy surgery. [00:09:00] Um, and apologies to any surgeons out there who might be listening, but my initial experience wasn't that exciting. But I, I, I really, I remember the first, uh, week of walking into, uh, the ED at, well, first of all, at, at, um, Moorabbin, and had some interesting times there.
Dr Simon Judkins: But then at Monash and that thriving team-based, environment really sort of, um, uh, hit me. Um, and I knew sort of pretty much at that stage that this was the thing for me. I think it was that, um, you know, the, the, the vibe, um, you know, the- the excitement, the undifferentiated patient, but really the teamwork.
Dr Simon Judkins: The, it was the team thing that really got me and being able to work alongside, closely alongside our senior registrars and consultants and, and again, you know, people that I've seen develop their careers as we've moved around and, and that was the thing. And it's always, to me, um, I think the team based, , medicine with, , nursing colleagues, physios, et cetera.
Dr Simon Judkins: , I've just had a link with public health and public hospitals for, for my whole [00:10:00] career, that's where I've really found my niche. I think public hospitals and as I said, emergency care and, and looking after anybody who turns up to your front door.
Dr Simon Judkins: Mm. Um, is something that really has appealed for me for the last 30 years of doing this job.
Sharee Johnson: It's interesting that you're talking about teamwork because there's a lot of competition in medicine at different phases in different parts- Yeah ... of your careers maybe. Um, and you're, you're reminding me, we, I interviewed, uh, Dr. Rob Blum, who's a, oncologist in Bendigo, uh, earlier on in the podcast, and he talked about teamwork, that that was what really attracted him to oncology. Yeah. So it's interesting where, where different doctors find that experience of teamwork and, and-
Dr Simon Judkins: Yeah ...
Sharee Johnson: collegial thing. And when you were talking about university too, I think that medicine does that very well, that whole cohort experience of people spending a lot of time together through, through med school, through those years.
Sharee Johnson: Absolutely. And really connecting for a long time afterwards.
Dr Simon Judkins: I think it's incredibly, uh, important to feel like you're part of something. Mm-hmm. And I think that's something that's really sustained me in all, [00:11:00] through all, everything that I've done, have had the pleasure and, and the privilege of being able to do.
Dr Simon Judkins: That you're part of something, and you're part of a team. And part of that for me now is, is supporting, our staff to be the best that they can be and do the job that they wanna do. Help them, I guess, through, some of the rougher times. But, I guess the role in the team has gone from being, you know, somebody who initially was, you know, a newcomer and, and learning from those people who, , had the capacity to teach and learn and support and mentor, , and now later in the career, still having a significant role.
Dr Simon Judkins: Well, I think I still, I hope I still have a significant role. And helping, you know, using those skills to sort of, I guess, guide people and help them with their, um, not only their career, but their, their other aspects of their life, I think, that we all bring to work, you know?
Dr Simon Judkins: . And, and now, as I said, my role is really trying to develop, um, support people, develop new leaders. Make myself, I guess, dispensable. I mean, ultimately, I think when we talk [00:12:00] about, um, senior roles and leadership roles, um, I've always had the opinion that, um, I'm here to support the next person to take over, you know?
Dr Simon Judkins: . I step aside, I want my, my ED to have the next level of leaders just able to step in, and I can, you know, wander off into, you know, the sunset and know that the place is, is sorted because we've got good people there.
Sharee Johnson: Mm, su- sustainable. Uh, before we get into talking more about, um, the actual doctors, I wonder if we could take a minute to talk about the patients.
Sharee Johnson: I'm really curious. You know, in emergency medicine, you are literally on the front line. You're working with people who come in with every kind of health issue.
Dr Simon Judkins: Yeah.
Sharee Johnson: All sorts of psychological and physical trauma. Um, you're working shift work. You're working in teams where your patients are working with multiple of you sometimes at the same time.
Dr Simon Judkins: Yeah.
Sharee Johnson: Um, there's pressure to keep the patients moving through the system. Um, what is it that the patients, you'd like the patients and their families to understand about emergency medicine? You know, we don't [00:13:00] always arrive there as our best selves. We're distressed. Something's happened we didn't anticipate.
Dr Simon Judkins: Yeah. Um- Yeah, that, it's, it's a difficult one, isn't it? Because I think it's, we s- we see such a diversity of patients, um, from, you know, neonates through to people who are centurions, and people from different cultural backgrounds, and race and religion, and, you know, the diversity. One of, I guess it's one of the things that I really love about it is, is that, um, that diversity.
Dr Simon Judkins: , And I understand that it is very, very challenging and very frustrating for people, um, and patients and families when they come to EDs because they're very, very stressed. And unfortunately, we're working in a system that is incredibly pressured. So I think, really I think, um, I want people to understand that the doctors and nurses who are there are doing the best job that they can.
Dr Simon Judkins: They're there to help. They're there to do, to look after you. [00:14:00] Sometimes the system, well, sometimes, often, quite a lot- Mm ... all the time, um, the system that they work in actually is, provides significant barriers, um, and challenges to them to be able, uh, I guess, to provide the best care. So, so understanding their work environment and what they're trying to achieve, I guess that's the message there.
Dr Simon Judkins: You know, they're not there to, you know... They're there to help. The reason they all turn up to work is because they wanna make things better, wanna be, treat patients, and they are working in a system that is, um, is very stressful, and it sometimes can seem like it's not, it, it really doesn't support them to be the best that they can be as well.
Sharee Johnson: Mm. It's, it's challenging to the extent that we actually have a fantastic medical system- Yeah ... compared to many other countries. So there's that fine line, isn't there, between wanting to feel grateful and, and lucky, and glad that I can just roll in any time to the- Yeah ... ED when something happens. And then also, um, getting there and feeling very frustrated and disappointed or confused about what's the kind of care that I think I'm gonna get that I may or may not be able [00:15:00] to get due to the, all those circumstances that are out of people's control.
Dr Simon Judkins: Yeah. But to really, it's a really fascinating conversation about our healthcare system, um, because there is no... I mean, on all measures, um, we have got a very, very good healthcare system.
Sharee Johnson: Mm.
Dr Simon Judkins: Um, and the governments keep telling us that, so, you know, we have to believe them. Um, but we do know that. I mean, um, you know, uh, in our public hospital systems, and that's where I, that's where I work, and, and, and our, and our GPs.
Dr Simon Judkins: Um, you know, the reason we've got such a great system is because of the people who work in it, um, you know, from community care through to hospital care to, um, and I guess the- a sense of frustration that, uh, both the community has, but particularly the clinicians who work in that system, is that they see that it could be better-
Sharee Johnson: Mm
Dr Simon Judkins: should be better, even though it is good and it's comparative. But, you know, I don't think we can make the, the, the, the excuses that, uh, you know, but it's worse in other places, so you don't have to worry about it. I think that's a cop-out. I [00:16:00] think we need to understand that if we've got clinicians, you know, all sorts of clinicians, whether it's our allied health, our physios, whoever it is, who says, "Yeah, but there's things that are stopping me from doing my job to the best of my ability or capacity, um, or the environment that I'm working in is causing me mental anguish, you know, psychological stress," then we've got a problem with the system.
Dr Simon Judkins: Um- Yeah ... and, uh, and it needs to respond and it needs to be better. Um, these are highly dedicated people who spend a lot of time, you know, studying, working, to get to the point where they can, become consultants, senior nurses, et cetera. Um, and to put them in an environment that actually, uh, impacts them in such a negative way, I think we've really got to question, and we've really got to question the government about, you know, what are they trying to achieve here?
Dr Simon Judkins: You need to listen to your clinicians, and if the clinicians are saying it's not good enough, then you need to pay attention to that. It's not good enough.
Sharee Johnson: Mm. You're really drawing my mind. You, you referred to the GPs, and you're really drawing my mind to what's, what's happened in, in, uh, primary care over the last- [00:17:00] Yeah
Sharee Johnson: few years in terms of, um, well, all manner of things. I don't, I don't want to sidetrack us too much, but w- what's the importance for you as an emergency physician in terms of the relationship with GPs and the communications that can happen with GPs? H- how do you reflect on that?
Dr Simon Judkins: My, my, my view has, uh, always been that, um, if we want a healthcare system that is sustainable, affordable, effective, um, that prevention is better than cure.
Sharee Johnson: Mm.
Dr Simon Judkins: And the people who are best at prevention are, are our GPs, and we need to be supporting them. Um, I, I, I find it, um, you know, we're, we're, we're talking about trying to decrease hospital admissions, decrease... You know, and the best way to do that is to keep people healthy in the community. Um- Mm ... and the best way to do that, and I don't think we've ever seen another model that can disprove it, is to make sure people have access to a GP, that they can have regular healthcare checks, that they can [00:18:00] afford to go to their GP.
Dr Simon Judkins: Um, and we know that, you know, spending money in prevention is gonna be much more cost-effective, um, than expensive hospital care. Uh, it continues to, uh, uh, confuse me or bemuse me or, you know, why we still have these, you know, funding models that don't sort of support that. Um, uh, we keep on announcing new things, you know, urgent care centers and, and other models of care, and I just... A- and, you know, we're leaving, uh, complex care in community to GPs without actually properly remunerating them either.
Dr Simon Judkins: And so, you know, I don't really understand where, where we're going, um, or what the government's end goal is with all this. Um, as I said, um, keeping people well in community, and accessible care with a GP who knows them is probably the most cost-effective thing w- we can do. Um, but for some reason we, um, we, uh, s- we still seem to be, you know, not supporting that.
Sharee Johnson: Yeah, I think the stats that I've seen [00:19:00] certainly, certainly support... I, I concur. Um, and having GP embedded in community is incredibly powerful in terms of access, and so I think that's, that's the thing that we really want to be watching and, and-
Dr Simon Judkins: Yeah ...
Sharee Johnson: and supporting as a community.
Dr Simon Judkins: Yeah, absolutely. Y-
Sharee Johnson: you've been the president of, of the Australasian College of Emergency Medicine.
Sharee Johnson: It's a few years ago now, but I wonder- Yeah ... what you can tell our listeners who are doctors, um, what's it like to be the president of a college? What did you learn out of that? What were the skills and the, and the insights that you had out of being president? What would you say to a younger doctor who might be thinking one day they'd like to be, uh, aspiring for those kinds of roles?
Dr Simon Judkins: I, I think that's a, that's an opportunity to, if you're, if you're really invested in improving health, uh, and, and community health, public health, I guess I started, uh, my career, and I didn't really when I started my career. I remember when I had my first job interview with my first director, um, uh, a doctor called George Breitburg, who some people listening would know.[00:20:00]
Dr Simon Judkins: Um, and I said to, to George that, you know, "I just want to see patients. I don't, I don't want to do any of this admin stuff." You know, just, you know... I admittedly I did have other things going at the time when I got my fellowship that I was interested in, having a young family, you know, but I was doing other things outside which I really enjoyed.
Dr Simon Judkins: And I said, uh, you know, "I just want to see patients, do the work, and then go home." Um, but as I, you know, started to progress through, then you start to appreciate more, um, some of the system issues, um, and realize that, um, you can make a difference seeing one patient at a time, or you can make a difference trying to see a change in the system that is gonna impact, you know, the way we m- manage a- and deliver healthcare to, in a much broader, uh, broader aspect.
Dr Simon Judkins: And so, you know, I started making my way through, um, uh, various roles, uh, in the hospital I was working at. Um, and then somebody tapped me on the shoulder and said, "Oh, why don't you..." You know. I mean, I was doing a little bit of work at the college, but somebody sort of tapped me on the shoulder and said, "Why don't you, um, look at, um, take on a role as the ACEM?"
Dr Simon Judkins: [00:21:00] You know, putting, throwing your hat in the ring for that, and hadn't really thought about it. Around about the same time, I'd also done a, a, a program called the, um, Williamson's Community Leadership Program that gave me really broad exposure to, to community leaders and, and then really, I guess- Really, uh, reinforced with me what sort of leadership, leader that I would like to be.
Dr Simon Judkins: Um- Yeah ... and then I guess the opportunity at the college came up, and I was really fortunate to, to be able to take on that role. Um, uh, I think there was a couple of ducks that lined up at the time that, that, that enabled me to get there. Um, but, uh, I guess when I took on that role, it was really about, again, um, trying to engage emergency physicians across the country into sort of, you know, stepping up and, and really trying to, um, emphasize, uh, the, the issues that we have across the system, and really trying to emphasize the importance of, um, you know, having s- systems that actually work for patients and work for clinicians.
Dr Simon Judkins: But, you know, it was a great time. Met some great people. [00:22:00] Met some, um, you know, other college presidents. Managed to sort of get involved in, in some health politics as well, um, obviously when you're in those roles. But yeah, it's really enjoyable, , time that I had there. , Not that I'd go back and do it again, but I really do reflect back, and I still catch up.
Dr Simon Judkins: It's 10 years later, and I still catch up with the, the college staff fairly regularly because, again, it's like university. You develop these bonds. Mm-hmm. Okay. You know, you do trenches together, and you, and you still catch up and reflect on, on, on some of the things that you've achieved.
Sharee Johnson: Mm-hmm. Has much changed in emergency medicine in terms of the actual day-to-day work?
Sharee Johnson: Obviously, the politics and so on has, some of the funding has changed, but has much changed in emergency medicine in the last 10 years?
Dr Simon Judkins: I mean, obviously some of the healthcare we deliver has changed. It got- it's- but it's got bigger and it's got busier, and I think it has, uh, I think it is more challenging, more stressful.
Dr Simon Judkins: I think, again, um, I keep on talking about being in, in, you know, places at the right, right place, right time. You know, I think I, when I started my emergency medicine career, it was a fairly young specialty. I think I was emergency medicine [00:23:00] specialist number 634. Mm-hmm. And at that stage, I do remember, uh, politicians in health say, "We, you know, we only need, we don't need this many emergency physicians."
Dr Simon Judkins: You know, but I was fortunate to be able to, you know, get a, um, a job in the hospital that I wanted to work in, um, fairly early on. I think the politicians are still saying we don't need this many emergency physicians, but now we've got, you know, 3,500 across the country. Um, and emergency medicine demands are just going up and up and up.
Dr Simon Judkins: So, um, um, not quite sure what their solution is. Um, but I think it's a much tougher gig. I think the pressures are a lot higher. We see complex medical care, and I think the other thing that's really changed is that, um, the cohort of patients that we're, um, managing, um, a lot more elderly patients as well with complex medical needs, which is, which is, something that's really, really changed.
Dr Simon Judkins: Put a lot of pressure on the system because, you know, the amount of access block and overcrowding in emergency departments compared to, you know, 10 years ago is [00:24:00] extreme. Um, we did some media on this at AMA, uh, a couple of weeks ago, talking about things like 24-hour stays in emergency departments across the state, and the numbers are just extraordinary.
Dr Simon Judkins: So the work environment's really, really challenging. Um, and, you know, we do see a lot of people. I think, you know, the, when we talk about, um, the stresses, the burnout, the people wanting to, you know, cut down the hours, it's a real thing, um, because it is a, it is a really tough gig.
Sharee Johnson: I think that's part of why I really am delighted to be talking to you, I don't think our community, and certainly me as a...
Sharee Johnson: You know, I talk to doctors all day, five days a week
Sharee Johnson: Yeah
Sharee Johnson: And even so, I still don't really get a lot of what goes on s- some of the time in, in a hospital. I think for the community to understand the conditions, the work conditions of doctors, it's really difficult because mostly we only have contact with a doctor when we're sick, and we're very occupied on, on that.
Sharee Johnson: Or that's the thing- Yeah ... we're focused on. We're not really thinking about whether the doctor has worked for, you know, 24 hours or [00:25:00] seven days, uh, in a row or whatever. We, we don't, that's not part of what we're thinking about. And I think as a community, we do need to start thinking about that, doctors are a very valued resource that we all need in order to be well.
Sharee Johnson: Yeah.
Sharee Johnson: The research is very, very clear that when doctors are well, the patient outcomes in terms of health and healthcare experience improve. Yeah. And that, that's not in dispute. So why we're not attending to that more effectively is, is a bit of a mystery to me.
Dr Simon Judkins: And that's, that's been a, a message of our industrial, our EBA campaign, is- Mm-hmm
Dr Simon Judkins: Asking the public, is this the sort of healthcare system you want?
Dr Simon Judkins: Yeah.
Dr Simon Judkins: You know, do you want to turn up to an emergency department or turn up to an oncology ward, you know, um, late in the evening, um, and, uh, and have a doctor who's on their seventh night shift and, you know, at the end of their 14-hour shift, and they've done five or six nights in a row.
Dr Simon Judkins: Um, and they're fatigued, and they're tired- Yeah ... and they work in a system they don't feel gives them the opportunities [00:26:00] they want to be, to be the best they can be. So, so we know, um, that that causes, that increases, complex decision-making, multitasking, it increases error. And there's nothing more heartbreaking, I think, for a clinician, uh, when you're working in that environment, when you're tired, you're multitasking, and you're in the car driving home after a shift, and you go, "Oh," you know, I was gonna swear then, but, "Oh, gee whiz, um, I think I stuffed that up."
Dr Simon Judkins: And then you're calling your colleagues at work and saying, "Can you just check on this for me, because I'm really..." So that's, that's, that's, that's a really gut-wrenching moment, and I think it's happened for all of us. Sometimes it's just that thought that, "Oh my God, I might have done something wrong."
Dr Simon Judkins: Sometimes it is. Most of the time- fingers crossed enough there's no bad outcome, but occasionally we, this is the thing, we're working in a, an environment where, um Small mistakes can have really nasty, bad outcomes. And I- Yeah,
Sharee Johnson: they can. And
Dr Simon Judkins: that- We've, we've all, we've all seen that happen.
Sharee Johnson: Yeah. And those a- those bad outcomes last [00:27:00] for a lifetime in the- Yeah ... p- in the patient or the patient's family, but they also can last a lifetime in the healthcare workers. You know, and as a psychologist, I understand that too from, from a different angle. But-
Dr Simon Judkins: Yeah ...
Sharee Johnson: that same thing, that, you know, a bad out- none of us are in the, in the work, we understand the risk of a bad outcome, but we're not- Yeah
Sharee Johnson: but we're there to try and minimize those risks and- Yeah ... to have good outcomes. So when they go wrong, it's devastating all round.
Sharee Johnson: Um, I wanna ask you, you've had all these other roles, Simon. You've, you're currently the president of the Victorian AMA, you've worked in rural and urban healthcare, you've been concerned about equity in health.
Sharee Johnson: Yeah. Um, you know, you think about climate change. There's lots of things here that might not be standard under the role of, you know, the heading of doctor. They might be called optional extras in your working life. How do you, how do you think about your role in the profession of medicine?
Dr Simon Judkins: I think, um, that the roles that I've had, you know, with the college, um, and as an ED director and... [00:28:00] But there's two things. One, as I said before, about public hospitals and public health and community health, you know, I, I think equity and access is a real thing, um, and, and something I'm really, you know, passionate about.
Dr Simon Judkins: I think everybody has... And this is why I ended up came and started working, uh, in rural Victoria, um, because when I was, uh, college president, we spoke a lot about regional rural healthcare, and that we need to ensure that we get, um, the right people in those communities to deliver the care. Um, and it was during sort of the COVID crisis and my experience at the, the tertiary that was, I needed a bit of a career change, a tree change.
Dr Simon Judkins: Mm. Well, it wasn't a tree change at the time, I just needed a career change, but it- Yeah ... ended up, ended up being a tree change. Um, that I decided that I'd, um, uh, come up and work, uh, at Echuca. Um, and that was six years ago. Um, and, uh, and I've, uh, you know, up here every week spending a couple of nights, um, as said, I'm in Echuca now.
Dr Simon Judkins: Uh, spending a couple of nights a [00:29:00] week up here , trying to run the ED up here, and it's been an incredibly, , rewarding experience. Uh, very, very different. Fantastic opportunities to actually feel like you're making a significant difference. Um, and I think if anybody, you know, one of my, um, messages will be if you feel as though you're in a bit of a grind and working in a, you know, a facility that doesn't really feel like it's supporting you, then, um, you know, just by coming to the, walking through the doors into an ED or a, or the wards in a, a regional rural hospital, you make a difference just by turning up.
Sharee Johnson: Mm.
Dr Simon Judkins: Um, you can make a difference. And so it's, it's been incredibly rewarding. It is tough. I mean, being away from home a couple of days a week, um, is, is difficult But, um, but, uh, it's incredibly rewarding thing to have done.
Sharee Johnson: Mm. It's another thing that I think the community doesn't really think about. I was talking to a doctor last week who's been going to, um, uh, a, a place, I won't say the place, but a, a regional place three and a half hours out of- Mm
Sharee Johnson: the city once a month, for a couple of days once a month, not every week, but for 20 years. You [00:30:00] know, it's a fantastic- Yeah ... commitment that, uh, some of our medics make to try and bring access and equity. And, and I've been really surprised - I've been working with doctors for about 13 or 14 years, and, uh, it comes up over and over again where doctors are concerned about access and equity.
Sharee Johnson: And I think that's a, a- Yeah ... missed understanding in the community that doctors are doing the work that they're doing because it's interesting and because they can contribute, and because collectively I think there is this, this real, um, live value of, you know, wanting equality and a- Yeah ... access to healthcare.
Sharee Johnson: Not to kind of, you know, um, put you on a pedestal too much, but just to recognize that, that there's this active, this voice that's active in our community about what it is to provide healthcare. Yeah. And it goes way beyond just the patient that's in front of you.
Dr Simon Judkins: I feel incredibly, um, fortunate and privileged to have been able to spend 30 years doing this. And it, it does, I mean, it's, every time I have [00:31:00] a conversation with- clinicians. It's inevitably if you, if you delve into it, everybody's doing something else- Mm ... outside of their main job, which is whether it's volunteering to go overseas and, and work in, you know, a developing nation to do surgery.
Dr Simon Judkins: Um, you know, we hear about, a lot about some of the big ticket items, but a lot of people are flying under the radar who are going and doing work, you know, pro bono work, volunteer work. Um, uh, you know, whether it's in, in regional rural Australia or whether it's, um, internationally. Um, and we just don't know about it.
Dr Simon Judkins: Um, and it's extraordinary the amount of people who actually do do that. Recently, um, I was overseas, I was in Sri Lanka, at a conference there which was raising some money for local healthcare needs as well. Um, and I bumped into a couple of people who I'd worked at, at a hospital in Melbourne and, um, and I said, "I didn't know you."
Dr Simon Judkins: And, and they're, they're doing work in Sri Lanka and raising money in Sri- And so there's a lot of people who do this extra work that we d- never really, really, um, have a good handle on. [00:32:00] Having a medical career is, is, uh, one of those careers that you can make a difference.
Dr Simon Judkins: And I think that's why we all love doing it because, uh, you know, you, you turn up to work, And that's why I love emergency medicine. Every time I turn up to work, I know I'm gonna be doing something that's helping make a difference in somebody else's life. Um, that can be a small thing. That can be a big thing.
Dr Simon Judkins: Um, but it's, th- th- that's always something during that day that makes a big difference.
Sharee Johnson: There's something else here, though, I think, Simon. Like, we, we talk often about how we select for doctors. You know, we select the cream of the crop from high school.
Dr Simon Judkins: Yeah.
Sharee Johnson: Um, the high performers in the science and math subjects, and there's debate often about whether that's the right way to select.
Sharee Johnson: Yeah. But there's something- Yeah ... else that we're selecting here for as well, whether it's accidental or on purpose, I'm not sure. But we're also selecting people who are willing to do these extra things-
Dr Simon Judkins: Yeah ...
Sharee Johnson: in the community. I, I, I don't know of any research that tells us anything about that, and maybe the people who are selecting students into medical schools know.
Sharee Johnson: Yeah. But there's something else here because it's so consistent, [00:33:00] and this voice of, uh, you know, pointing to access and equity and, and that everybody, has the right for health and healthcare.
Dr Simon Judkins: Yeah. Yeah, and I think, I think it's because you see, you do see a lot of- a lot of cases, a lot of people, a lot of patients, a lot of families who, who haven't had the access to healthcare that they've needed and they've suffered because of that.
Sharee Johnson: Mm.
Dr Simon Judkins: And I think no matter where you work and what's, where, doesn't matter what area you work in, there will be people there, you're going, "Well, you know, if only they had seen this person at this time," or, "If only they had the opportunity to have that done." Um, and, and I think it makes people realize that the system has to be better.
Dr Simon Judkins: Mm. Um, and we need to try and ensure, you know, that people have, you know, that equitable access and access when they need it. And I think that's what drives people because we, we see the poor outcomes of people when they don't have access, and we're trying to, you know, trying to somehow fix that. But, and it [00:34:00] still happens.
Dr Simon Judkins: I see, you know, in where, where I work, you know, things that might seem fairly, you know, trivial but, you know, access to dental care, and how, how impactful that can be on people's careers and their mental health and wellbeing. And, I guess one of the things is we tend to see the, the most extreme in ED, EDs as well.
Dr Simon Judkins: You see the, the most extreme examples of how bad things can go, uh, for people when they don't get access to care, and delays to treatment and what that can do. But you also see the flip side where you get to see the best-
Sharee Johnson: Mm
Dr Simon Judkins: of everything as well.
Sharee Johnson: So I wo- so I wonder if it's there at selection or whether it's just happens over exposure over the years, those early years of exposure where you see what actually is happening in human people's lives as you do the work- Yeah
Dr Simon Judkins: I think most people who decide to go into a health career, um, don't go in it for any other...
Dr Simon Judkins: Well, there's a number of different reasons, but I'm sure everybody goes in it because they want to help people.
Dr Simon Judkins: Mm.
Dr Simon Judkins: You know, otherwise you wouldn't do it. Um- Well,
Sharee Johnson: I think, yeah, I think that's right. It's pretty hard- Yeah ... to keep going if you don't have that.
Sharee Johnson: Yeah.
Sharee Johnson: I have, I have met some doctors [00:35:00] who've told me that that's not true, that they became a doctor because their dad wanted them to be, or things like that.
Sharee Johnson: But I think that if they stay there-
Dr Simon Judkins: Yeah ...
Sharee Johnson: that's really to the point that you're making.
Dr Simon Judkins: Well, I think, I think, but I also think that's part of the, not the, uh... well, I guess it's resilience. Part of the, you know, um, the thing that keeps people going, um, is because, um, you know, uh, by turning up to work and doing what you do, you actually make lives, hopefully you make lives better for other people.
Dr Simon Judkins: Yeah. And I don't think there's, um, too many jobs that, you know, can be as rewarding as that.
Sharee Johnson: Mm. Mm. So let's get to the, the kind of, um, the politics of the day in Victoria. Yeah. I want to talk to you about the protected industrial action, of course, that's happening for doctors. But before we go there, I want to just take a step back and kind of get into the basics of the funding, because not everybody- Yeah
Sharee Johnson: that's listening to us is a doctor and understands that. So, so doctors who work in Australia in the public sector, in our major, major hospitals, are public servants. And so that means that they're- Yeah ... employed by [00:36:00] the government. Their, their wages come from the government. And because of our various tiers of government, that can get a bit confusing.
Sharee Johnson: So, um, the states and the territory governments are the ones who are responsible for health. Yeah. But their funding comes i- uh, in large part from the federal government. So just to be really clear that when we're talking today about the, what's happening for doctors in Victoria, we're talking about an argument with the state government.
Dr Simon Judkins: Yes.
Sharee Johnson: And of course, there is also other funding. So hospitals like St Vincent's or Peter MacCallum have strong, um, fundraising arms that they, uh, uh, are also raising their own money for, uh, work- Mm ... that they do, and sometimes that's for paying wages, sometimes that's for, um, research and other things. So just to kind of, just to slow down a little bit and recognize that- The states and territories are the people who are responsible for, um, for paying doctors and for running the hospitals-
Dr Simon Judkins: Yep
Sharee Johnson: in their state. But not, they're not necessarily raising all the money themselves. Some of the money's coming from other places. Yeah. And then they have, [00:37:00] um, the, you know, the state allocates the money to the health services and, and the health services have their own boards who are responsible for the governance, including the budgeting.
Sharee Johnson: So it's kind of a bit convoluted, isn't it? Um- No,
Dr Simon Judkins: I was just jotting all that down. I've just learned a whole lot of stuff.
Sharee Johnson: So I hope I've got that right. Um, I'm sure the listeners, some of the listeners might have some things to correct me on. But currently in Victoria, the doctors who work in our public, um, hospitals are, um, without a contract essentially.
Sharee Johnson: Yeah. So they have a, uh, im- they have an EBA with the government, and that ran out earlier this year. Yeah. And, uh, r- we say that there's a negotiation going on, but it appears like there's not a lot of negotiating going on. So I'll ask you in a minute to help us understand that. So the, the AMA is the professional body that represents doctors.
Sharee Johnson: So, um- Yeah ... and we, and, and next to, let's say next to or part of the AMA is also the Australian Salaried Medical Officers Federation, what we call- Yeah ... ASMOF.
Dr Simon Judkins: Yeah.
Sharee Johnson: So that [00:38:00] is the doctors' union. So the doctors' union, ASMOF, and the professional association, the AMA, are seeking to negotiate a new EBA, a new enterprise bargaining agreement, with the Victorian Government.
Sharee Johnson: So I think that's a good- That's pretty much it,
Dr Simon Judkins: yes ... enough description
Sharee Johnson: of the
Dr Simon Judkins: landscape. Yeah.
Sharee Johnson: So we could say in short form that the doctors are trying to negotiate a new employment contract, the public service doctors, with their employer, that is the Victorian Government. That's our- Yeah ... that's our kind of bottom line.
Sharee Johnson: That's what's happening. And as we speak, there is rolling protected industrial action. So that began last week. Uh, today, right now, while we're talking, uh, the doctors at Eastern Health, Box Hill, and the associated hospitals and Monash Health are engaging in a stop work process. What's happening that we don't have an EBA?
Sharee Johnson: How do we get to a situation where there's six months down the track with no contract with your employer?
Dr Simon Judkins: Um, I guess, you know, we probably need to ask [00:39:00] somebody else that question because we continue to be, um, dumbfounded by the fact that we're actually in this at this point now. Mm. Um, first of all, a call out to all of those doctors out there who are actually, you know, stepping up and, um, and, uh, uh, um, participating in those stop work meetings and, and, and to the amazing staff of AMA and ASMOF, um, for, for doing what they do.
Dr Simon Judkins: It's been an incredibly long negotiation. Well, the definition of neg- negotiation, it's not really a negotiation because we've been trying to negotiate and we haven't really got anywhere. Um, and I, I guess the other message that none of us want to be doing this. Uh, you know, none of our members, uh, none of our public hospital doctors ever wanted to get to this point.
Dr Simon Judkins: And so the fact that we're here is pretty extraordinary. Um, first time in 20 years, um, that we've got to this point. And we started the... I keep using the word negotiations, maybe we'll say we started meeting, [00:40:00] um, with the representatives, um, of, uh, the health department, um, last year, um, probably way back in August of last year.
Dr Simon Judkins: Regular meetings, not like they've just been one meeting every now and then. There've been weekly meetings going through this with a little bit of a break over, you know, December, January. And really, um, haven't progressed anything at all. There's been some offers up that have then been withdrawn. So, um, things like, uh, yes, we'll, we'll pay, um, for overtime or for , senior consultants to be, when they're on call, um, to be paid for that.
Dr Simon Judkins: Um, and then, you know, come back the following week and say, "Oh, well, that's off the table again." Um- And, uh, really to progress the negotiations, we actually need to have something written down on a bit of paper to say, "This is what we agree to. Um, this is, you know, uh..." And, and then we can ba- That, that's when the negotiations start.
Dr Simon Judkins: So you could argue that the negotiations actually haven't start because we actually haven't had an offer [00:41:00] on the table over for, for almost a year. Um, and whether we don't, you know, I, I, I still don't know how that, what the other side, what the government and the health departments are thinking. Um, uh, and it is disrespectful.
Dr Simon Judkins: I think it is incredibly disrespectful because, you know, we, these are, are clinicians who are dedicated to public health and looking after the health of all Victorians, you know, across the state. And I've said from, you know, Mildura down to Mallacoota, from Wodonga to Warrnambool, 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
Dr Simon Judkins: You've got doctors, looking after the Victorian public when and where they need it and trying to provide the best care that they can. Um, and for some reason, the government hasn't felt that that was, you know, worthy of, um, uh, you know, trying to support that. Mm. The other interesting thing to me is that much of what we're asking for is about safe work conditions.
Dr Simon Judkins: And as we touched on before, you know, um, working in a system, working in a medical [00:42:00] career is challenging enough anyway. Um, and we talk about the challenge of, you know, complex surgery or resuscitation or, you know, a, a, a conversation with family about end of life care, um, a sick child. That's, that's challenging.
Dr Simon Judkins: And we, we go into medicine expecting those challenges. But then to work in a system that makes everything harder because of, you know, the, the, the unfair rostering, because of, um, the fatigue, uh, because of the, the pressures of multitasking and, and complex decision making, you know, in an environment that doesn't support that.
Dr Simon Judkins: You know, they're challenges I think that, um, lead to, stress, burnout, error, you know, moral injury. Um, we have legislation that was passed last year that employers have a, a responsibility to provide a psychologically safe workplace for their employees. We have a, a workplace that you could very strongly argue is not psychologically safe for a lot of doctors.
Dr Simon Judkins: So a lot of what we're talking about in this EBA is safe working conditions for [00:43:00] fatigue management. Um, allowing doctors to, you know, getting rid of 14 hour shifts, um, and having a maximum of 12 and a half hour shift, which is still in itself pretty extraordinary that, you know, um- Paying, uh, senior doctors when, or specialists when they're on call actually remunerating that.
Dr Simon Judkins: You know, we have clinicians who are on call for public hospitals, and they might get woken up three or four times a night, and they're not remunerated. It's just expected that they'll do it. So, um, all of those sorts of things. So this is about, supporting our doctors in training to, to really manage their stress and fatigue and, and give them an environment that'll, enables them to train and develop their skills and, you know, progress their careers without the fear, of, of medical error, stress, and burnout.
Dr Simon Judkins: But also making sure we keep the best senior clinicians in the public hospital system so they can do the research, they can do the education, do the mentoring. So as I said, I find it extraordinary that, you know, [00:44:00] we have this legislation and much of what we're talking about is, is, you know, providing that safe work environment for, for doctors.
Dr Simon Judkins: Um, so it, it, it does seem quite, uh, uh, it does seem quite amazing, um, in the negative sense, I guess, of what amazing means. Extraordinary that we're at this situation where our doctors feel like they need to, um, have stop work meetings to get the attention of the government. This is serious, and they've got to get it resolved.
Sharee Johnson: Hmm. There's about eight things I want to pick up there, so I hope I can remember some of them. Um, we have a new-ish health minister, Ingrid Stitt.
Dr Simon Judkins: Yep.
Sharee Johnson: How many health ministers have we had during this negotiation? Has there only been two, or has there been more?
Dr Simon Judkins: There's been three. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So we started off, uh, we started off with Maryanne Thomas.
Dr Simon Judkins: , And then, um, uh, Harriet Singh was in the role for a fairly brief period of time. And then when, um, uh, Ben Carroll took over the leadership, um, um, Ingrid Stitt has stepped into the role.
Sharee Johnson: Mm-hmm.
Dr Simon Judkins: Uh, and she is, uh, the role of both health minister and [00:45:00] mental health, minister as well. We've had, uh, some meetings with Minister Stitt, um, and, uh, and her team.
Dr Simon Judkins: Uh, and we are hoping, um, that we're going to at least see a piece of paper with some numbers on it sometime very, very soon- Mm-hmm ... um, so we can get on with doing our jobs.
Sharee Johnson: I mean, what you're describing is a system that's running on goodwill at the moment. Yeah. Uh, uh, but you're also describing that there's nothing, no evidence.
Sharee Johnson: Perhaps I shouldn't say nothing. There's very little evidence o- of that goodwill being well-placed.
Dr Simon Judkins: Yeah. I, I think, you know, um, we, none of us really, really, really, you know, we all do, as, as we said before, we all do bits of extra work.
Sharee Johnson: Mm.
Dr Simon Judkins: Um, and we do those bits of extra work because we want to help out a colleague, or there's a difficult case and we'll do it, or, you know, there's a, a, a, a trainee that needs extra, uh, tutorials.
Dr Simon Judkins: And so there's stuff that we all do that is just [00:46:00] extra stuff. Um, and we do it because we wanna support our colleagues, um, and we want to ensure that, and we get, we get a lot of satisfaction from doing that. But, but it shouldn't be built into the system that it's expected that we do it, and that's the problem.
Sharee Johnson: Mm.
Dr Simon Judkins: Um, we're expected to do that on-call stuff, and we're expected to do it. And in fact, you know, one of the comments along the way was, "Well, if we paid for that, you know, that overtime that you do, you know, we wouldn't be able to afford it." So, you know, they've ig- acknowledged that they, they pretty much rely on the goodwill of clinicians to actually keep a lot of what we do running.
Dr Simon Judkins: Mm. So it's, it's, it's, it's pretty, um, it is pretty extraordinary.
Sharee Johnson: So, so the previous EBA that's now expired was negotiated four years ago. Is that right?
Dr Simon Judkins: Yeah. Yeah.
Sharee Johnson: And so does that mean that there's been no, um, let's just keep it really simple, there's no wage increase for doctors in that time, or was, was there a wage increase, annual wage increase built in?
Dr Simon Judkins: Yeah. But it was, you know, pretty... It was, it was less than, uh, inflation.
Sharee Johnson: Okay. So- And so, so [00:47:00] now there is, uh, there is a question of wage increase on the table. Yeah. What else are doctors asking for specifically?
Dr Simon Judkins: Um, it really is, there's a, a number of things for our doctors in training is to... Well, one of the things we're trying to maintain is things like training time.
Dr Simon Judkins: They, they wanted to take that away. I negotiated on that. So a lot of- So
Sharee Johnson: sorry, j- so that, that means that, uh, you're actively working in patient roles all of the time without any s- time to do things like tutorials or actual
Dr Simon Judkins: hands-on training. Yeah, yeah. That's right. That's right. Yeah. So simplifying things like, um, overtime claims.
Dr Simon Judkins: We had a class action not that long ago that cost the, the government a lot of money, um, because systems in hospitals, the way it was, the, the sort of process, the steps you had to go through to actually claim your overtime actually became a barrier. And, and a lot of, uh, uh, DITs actually became quite worried about claiming overtime because it might impact their, their, uh, uh, ability to continue in that hospital.
Dr Simon Judkins: There was almost this feeling that if I claim my overtime, then my supervisor won't like it, and certainly [00:48:00] medical workforce won't like it, so I'll just do the work and shut up. Because-
Sharee Johnson: Mm. So D- DIT is being doctors in training. Doctors in training.
Dr Simon Judkins: Yeah.
Sharee Johnson: Who are often negotiating year to year in terms of their job.
Dr Simon Judkins: Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, they, the system was so, I, I guess, um, stressful or disempowering that they felt that they, by doing simple things like claiming overtime, it would actually negatively impact them. Mm. Um, and so we... Things like just making that process easier so they didn't have to go through, have to go through those steps, that they could just claim the overtime, no questions asked, and be done.
Dr Simon Judkins: As I said, the, um, length of shifts, the number of night shifts. You know, seven 14-hour shifts, seven night shifts, 14 hours each in a row is exhausting. Um, and by the end of that night, that, that seventh night shift, well, you know, by the end of the first night shift doing 14 hours, you're exhausted.
Dr Simon Judkins: By the end of seven, it's incredibly exhausting.
Sharee Johnson: I don't want to be a patient then. Yeah. Can I just say? Yeah. I think, I heard Dr Leanne Rowe speak very passionately about this recently in terms of- Yeah ... the psychological safety and the, and the new workforce laws. I, I think the two of you are doing something [00:49:00] together, a presentation coming up soon.
Sharee Johnson: Yeah.
Sharee Johnson: So we might link that in the, in the show notes at the end for people to see where they can hear you speaking about this. So one of the ways to interpret what you're telling me is that the doctors are asking for work conditions that ordinary workers in all sorts of industries and jobs ask for, that they want an increase- Yeah
Sharee Johnson: over time to match inflation or, or perhaps be a little bit ahead of inflation, ideally- Yeah ... we probably all want. Um, that I want to be paid for the hours that I work, that when I work extra kinds of things like overnight or weekends- Yeah ... or extra days in a row, that that be recognized somehow. Yeah. That when I'm a doctor in training, I want to know that I've got, uh, the support of more experienced doctors to help me learn and to make sure I don't get things wrong.
Dr Simon Judkins: Yeah.
Sharee Johnson: That gives me some confidence in the work that I'm doing. That makes me feel more psychologically safe. These are not kind of outrageous things that you're asking for. They're ordinary things that ordinary workers hope for and expect in their workplace.
Dr Simon Judkins: Yes. That's a good summary. [00:50:00] That's- I think none of it's outrageous.
Dr Simon Judkins: And even, even, you know, rostering that enables a, a, a, a clinic doctor, a training doctor to have two days off in a, a fortnight in a row.
Sharee Johnson: Together, yeah.
Dr Simon Judkins: Yeah. And it's extraord- oh, I don't know what happened there.
Sharee Johnson: Oh.
Dr Simon Judkins: Oh, sorry about that.
Sharee Johnson: Zoom thought that was a good idea.
Dr Simon Judkins: Maybe one of somebody, somebody did.
Dr Simon Judkins: Um, so yeah, even that, uh, is, is just a standard that you would think across industries, having two days off in a row in a fortnight, um, and em- and embed that into your rostering practices. The fact that we have to do that is just seems, does seem extraordinary. But I guess it also is, is the fact that, um, uh, you know- The system where, that we work in has just expected that we're gonna do it, and I think we've had enough of that expectation, and this is why we've got to the point where we have to stop work.
Dr Simon Judkins: So I hope people understand. And, and as I said, our message too has always been that this is actually comes back to patient safety.
Sharee Johnson: Mm.
Dr Simon Judkins: You know? So- We recognize that this'll make the, our, our, [00:51:00] our job's easier to manage and, uh, and hopefully that, that... we know that that will lead to a decrease in, you know, um, medical error mistakes, um, and, and ha- harm to doctors.
Sharee Johnson: Well, that's why, that's why again, I think this conversation's really important because we all have a vested interest in knowing that the people who are providing care for us when we're unwell and we come into healthcare, into hospitals- Yeah ... that the people looking after us are safe and well and able to look after us.
Sharee Johnson: That's a vested- Yeah ... interest for everybody. We know that, um, burnout rates for doctors across all the different specialties, there's some variations, but it hovers between 45 and 60% of doctors- Yeah ... showing, um, symptoms of burnout. They may not qualify for actual burnout, but they're showing symptoms of burnout.
Sharee Johnson: So-
Dr Simon Judkins: Yeah ...
Sharee Johnson: we, we know that things like fatigue, feeling undervalued, feeling taken for granted, uh, feeling unheard, unseen, all these things. That, that happens for all adults where we start to feel like we don't- Yeah ... care or why should we bother or, or, you know, maybe I'll go look somewhere else for work.
Dr Simon Judkins: Yeah.[00:52:00]
Sharee Johnson: How does Victoria stack up against the other states and territories in terms of the conditions that our doctors are working within?
Dr Simon Judkins: I think if you looked at any states that there was, I don't think... We're not on our, um, not on our own- Mm-hmm ... when it comes to this. I, I certainly talk to colleagues in, in other, in, in other states, and they certainly have significant issues, very much the same issues.
Dr Simon Judkins: But I think the question that we need to ask the government is just because it's having, happening in other places doesn't mean we shouldn't be better here. And so I think we should be trying to, you know, lead by, you know, getting this right. Um, just because they don't have something there doesn't mean we don't, shouldn't have it here.
Dr Simon Judkins: So, um, so, uh, a- and as I said, I, I, I think the comment that you made before is that we're asking for things that in any other industry would just be a no-brainer.
Sharee Johnson: Mm.
Dr Simon Judkins: Um, and you know, we know that is impacting our doctors, um, negatively. So just, it just, uh, as I said, uh, [00:53:00] the more I talk about it, the more I, you know, feel quite stunned that we're actually at a point where, uh, this hasn't been finalized.
Sharee Johnson: Mm. When, when we compare, we often compare medicine to aviation. We also compare it to mining, and certainly- Yeah ... when we look at the safety precautions and the, uh, the, the rules and regulations around the wellbeing of people in mining and aviation-
Dr Simon Judkins: Yeah ...
Sharee Johnson: it, you know, I do find myself shaking my head saying, "Why isn't this standard?
Sharee Johnson: Why isn't this already locked in?"
Dr Simon Judkins: Yeah.
Sharee Johnson: What happens next? Do you have these rolling, um, stoppages, uh-
Dr Simon Judkins: Well, it escalates to, I guess, it's, it's the escalation is, uh, well, obviously the rolling stoppages, and then it gets to a, a point where we've already said that, um, there will be a statewide stoppage- Mm-hmm
Dr Simon Judkins: um, in, uh, in September, um, which is only a few days away, so, um, and, uh, and then it depends on, I guess, interventions and the potential that this goes to Fair Work Commissioners and things to, to solve this problem. But we, we just need somebody to intervene that [00:54:00] can actually has the capacity to make decisions.
Dr Simon Judkins: Um, and so far we haven't found that person. Mm-hmm. Um, and, uh, you know, I think there's enormous, there's this enormous sense of frustration for our industrial relations team who have been turning up in good faith every week, you know, twice a week sometimes, and just getting the same thing. So, um, we're really...
Dr Simon Judkins: As I said, I remain hopeful that, you know, we're gonna get some news about this in the next couple of days, and then we'll be able to go back and, you know, just continue to do the work that we wanna do.
Sharee Johnson: Should the members of the public be worried that they're not gonna be able to get the care that they can get while this industrial action is going on?
Dr Simon Judkins: We've always said that whatever we do, it's not going to impact patient safety, so critical operations will still continue. Our emergency departments will still be staffed. And essentially it's, it's our hospitals are still sta- safe on weekends. Mm-hmm. And so essentially we'll be going to things like weekend, it's, uh, the equivalent of weekend staffing.
Dr Simon Judkins: And so critical operations will still happen. Um, there might be some delays in some non-critical services. [00:55:00] Unfortunately, some things like outpatients, you know, can be delayed but, um, you know, anything that's time critical, anything that's, um, we'll still continue those services. And I think that's one of the things that people need to realize.
Dr Simon Judkins: We had, um, I think, you know, somewhere between 800 and 1,000 doctors last week in the Parkville precinct, and for every one of those doctors that was there, there was another 10 doctors, you know, working in those hospitals around that precinct who actually wanted to be there. But they were continuing to do the work, um, to make sure that, um, our patients were still looked after.
Sharee Johnson: Mm-hmm.
Dr Simon Judkins: And I think that's a really, you know, um, a really strong message that, um, you know, none of us, again, none of us wanna do this. Our prime goal is to care for, for the people that need us.
Sharee Johnson: Mm-hmm. Is there anything in particular that the community can be doing to help move this along?
Dr Simon Judkins: Um, I think they can write to their local parliamentarian. They can li- write to the local hospital. They can, you know, um, obviously ask questions of the doctors, you know, when they're in the hospital to see how they, you know, ask them how they're going and offer their support. [00:56:00] I think, I think knowing that, um, our communities are supporting us is really, really important, 'cause this is the reason we're, you know, we're doing it.
Dr Simon Judkins: Um, but certainly if, uh, people wanted to write letters to editors, uh, of papers, write to the local parliamentarian, um, that would be very, very welcome. And of course, when it gets to an election, you know, I don't want to go into the politics, but, you know, there's, that's the ultimate card. I think, um, you know, um, using their voice, is incredibly important, would be very, very supportive.
Sharee Johnson: Totally important. I think there is an election looming and so of course we do want to bring issues to, to the various, um, opponents- Mm ... in that process. But I, I want to just underline that this didn't start because the election is happening. You know, this started-
Dr Simon Judkins: Oh, we, we never thought that
Sharee Johnson: we-
Sharee Johnson: I think August last year, you told us earlier ...
Dr Simon Judkins: never thought that this, we would be in this position- Yeah ... where this would be an election looming. ... I thought this would've been finished in February.
Sharee Johnson: Mm.
Dr Simon Judkins: Um, and it just seems extraordinary that s- you know, we're six or seven, six months down the track and we're still not there.
Dr Simon Judkins: So, uh, the election never really came into our thinking. Um, and, uh, and as [00:57:00] it's, it's, uh, very frustrating that it is now, um, we're, we're at this point.
Sharee Johnson: Mm. What about the, all the people around you, the allied health people, the nursing staff, the non-clinical staff, are they, um, are they okay while you're doing, while the doctors are needing to step out?
Dr Simon Judkins: They're very supportive. Uh, you know, as I said before, the, the fantastic thing about working in public hospitals or working in medicine is that it's a team. Mm. It's a team sport, and every one of those people is an integral part of, you know, our team. Where I work in emergency medicine, it's from our cleaners to our allied health staff, it's, it's the, , the PSAs, nurses, you know, they're all part of the team.
Dr Simon Judkins: Uh, we all need each other and we all support each other. So, you know, we know our nurses have been through this, we know our allied health professionals have been through this. We're very supportive of them and they're very supportive of us.
Sharee Johnson: Mm. So we're just a small team here, but certainly Coaching for Doctors is supporting the action.
Sharee Johnson: I think, um, we all, the more, more of us that can be public about, uh, the need for the government to come to the table and- Yeah ... resolve the issue. I, [00:58:00] uh, that's my invitation to anybody who is listening, to support our doctors through this process and to really encourage the government to get this, get this resolved because, uh, as we heard from Simon's busy life , there's plenty of other things that doctors want to put their energy to and can put their energy to when they're not distracted by, um, arguing for, uh, what I think are pretty basic, um, employment rights that, uh- Yep
Sharee Johnson: most of us as workers in the world, uh, uh, uh, expect to ask for and to be able to achieve from our employers.
Sharee Johnson: Let's, um, move out into some of the other things that might, we might want to talk about while we've still got- Yep ... a few minutes.
Dr Simon Judkins: Yeah.
Sharee Johnson: So, um, you're, you're pretty actively engaged these days in the, in the climate change issue and, and, and on the front foot, I'd call it. You know, proactively, um, trying to help people think about the impact of, of climate change on our collective health.
Sharee Johnson: Yeah. But also of the impact of, of climate change on healthcare, and I wonder also about the things [00:59:00] that we do in healthcare on the climate in terms of, uh, you know, there's a lot of- Yeah ... disposable materials and things that we use in healthcare. What's occupying your mind at the moment about climate change?
Dr Simon Judkins: I think what's occupying me right now is what we're seeing in Europe. I was on a, a webinar a couple of days ago, um, just talking to clinicians, uh, working across Europe. -- We were talking about, you know, sort of global, uh, international climate advocacy, and, uh, hearing their experiences,
Dr Simon Judkins: The excess deaths, they're saying, you know, in the tens of thousands of, uh, excess deaths because of heat, particularly in the, the, you know, the groups of people that we know, um, are vulnerable. You know, people over 65, um, uh, people with complex medical conditions, cardiac conditions. The rise of, uh, people with strokes and cardiac events turning up to the hospitals across the UK, was incredible, um, and still is.
Dr Simon Judkins: We've still got heatwaves, um, in parts of Europe. Um, the impacts on the he-health systems [01:00:00] themselves. You know, a lot of the, uh, hospitals, particularly in the UK, you know, they've never needed air conditioning. They don't have air conditioning. They're built to keep people warm rather than to try and keep cool people down.
Dr Simon Judkins: So MRI machines shutting down because of the impacts of the heat, not being able to cool. Um, nursing staff fainting, people working in wards and sweating because there's no cooling, they've just got fans. Um, so those things are just, uh, yeah, in-incredibly impactful. And then of course the actual events, the bushfires, the smoke, having hospitals, communities having to be evacuated, the mortality because of that, the impacts on people's lives.
Dr Simon Judkins: And then it stretches out to the other health impacts. Now they're now talking about because of the drought, you know, food and water security. So climate, so the impacts of climate change on health goes from that individual, uh, who, um, is, their job means they're working outside in an environment and they need to keep working otherwise they don't have a livelihood, so suffering from, you know, heatstroke, dehydration, [01:01:00] and having cardiac events, um, through to the health systems that can't deliver the healthcare 'cause they're overwhelmed and their systems aren't working.
Dr Simon Judkins: And then all the way through to, um, people's livelihoods being affected because of climate events, which of course is a, you know, mental health crisis for those people. Um, and then food security and water security, and the health impacts of that. So that's this whole spectrum, and I think one of the things that, um, is really clear now is there's a uh, whole continent there and hopefully we're seeing the same enlightenment in, in...
Dr Simon Judkins: I know in Canada we are, but hopefully in the US we've obviously there's a, I don't wanna go into politics, but there's clearly a government there that hasn't been particularly climate friendly or science friendly or, or just friendly. Um, that this is that moment where they go, "Oh, shit You know, this is real, um, and we have to do something about it now.[01:02:00]
Dr Simon Judkins: Mm. It's that movie. Remember that movie, just, you know, Don't Look Up, when the meteor was coming towards Earth? I think the meteor's hit. Mm. People are now going, um, "Wow, you know, we've got to do something about this now." And it's really, really frustrating that a lot of us have spent a long time talking about the health impacts, trying to de-politicize it.
Dr Simon Judkins: This is, you know, it's, it's become a political thing, which I think is extraordinary. But this is a health, humanity, livelihood thing. Uh- Mm ... and, uh, hopefully people now have realized that, that, um, you know, this whole idea that this is never gonna impact me because I'll be fine, um, it's gonna impact everybody and it doesn't matter where you live, what you do, it's gonna have an impact.
Dr Simon Judkins: Um, and the, and, and it's the health impacts that we are really, really emphasizing that this is a, uh, this is a real threat to, um, uh, individuals, to communities. Um, the cost is gonna be extraordinary.
Sharee Johnson: Mm. I'm deeply disturbed [01:03:00] about the AI centers and, and the number of data centers- Yeah
Sharee Johnson: that we're building and the resources that they're gonna take. And,
Dr Simon Judkins: um- Yeah ...
Sharee Johnson: and this question of politics, you know, this feeling like, well, I, I, I have been apolitical in, in, in terms of my work and so on, but feeling like it's, it is political now. We- Yeah ... we need to activate our political voice about these things.
Sharee Johnson: Yeah. Not that we all necessarily have to agree, but- Yeah ... these conversations really need to happen with some urgency is my sense about it. Is, is AI a part of the climate change conversation from your end?
Dr Simon Judkins: To me, this all comes back to, um, what is, what a community needs and what a community wants , and what, uh, is going to enable the greatest number of people to have a, a meaningful, supported, , a healthy life.
Dr Simon Judkins: I'm not an AI expert. But obviously we hear the environmental impacts are extraordinary. Mm. Um, you know, one of the positives, I guess, in the Australian context, is that we have, we're having conversations about having AI data centers [01:04:00] to be, have their own energy, electricity sources, so renewable energy sources.
Dr Simon Judkins: Um, but obviously then there's the issues on, on water consumption, and we know that's gonna be a problem. It's gonna be the benefits versus risk. I mean, AI is not gonna solve climate change. Um, it's gonna make it w- you know, worse. Um, what does the community need?
Dr Simon Judkins: Unfortunately, a lot of this, the, the, the argument still seems to be driven by, uh, you know, people with vested interests, people in power. Um, there's no doubt. I mean, I don't want to sound extremist about this, but you know, the US is probably the greatest example of where, um, where the, if the power rests with a very small number of individuals, they just will become richer and richer, and, uh, to the detriment of the rest of the community.
Dr Simon Judkins: Um, and I think this really goes back to our politicians to ask what sort of... a- and to the Australian public, what sort of future do you want? Um, and, and who's gonna deliver that? For the majority of people, um, AI, you know, still is funny memes [01:05:00] and pictures of, you know, little cute little kittens riding on horses or whatever it is you do with it.
Dr Simon Judkins: Certainly does have benefits. I'm not dissing AI. It certainly does have a lot of benefits, and it can, and it will have positive effects on healthcare. But, you know, um, do we actually need it with that sort of desperate sort of frenzy of building data centers that, that, that is actually happening at the moment?
Dr Simon Judkins: . I was listening to an in- interesting podcast about, you know, there's so much investment in AI, it's gonna be a little bit like the tech boom that, you know, the other fear is that so many people are investing in AI and data centers that there's gonna be a whole lot of m- people are gonna lose a whole lot of money, uh, because those investments turn bad.
Dr Simon Judkins: But there'll be somebody at the other end of the scale who's incredibly wealthy or just get incredibly wealthier to the detriment of a whole lot of other people, and that's that continuing cycle, I think. So yes, a whole lot of stuff that's really, really concerning.
Sharee Johnson: I think that question of what's, what helps a community be healthy and what does the community want is the central question.
Sharee Johnson: The-
Dr Simon Judkins: Yeah ...
Sharee Johnson: concern , for me in this moment at least, is that while we're busy doing [01:06:00] survival things, like while doctors are fighting, uh, governments to just get a contract - Yeah ... they're not focused on other things, and that's the problem. A lot of people are busy surviving. There's a lot of things- Yeah
Sharee Johnson: to try and just keep your head above water. Um, and so, uh, you know, these things can be happening out of our awareness without, uh, any capacity to respond purely because we've got enough on our plate. That's-
Dr Simon Judkins: Well, yeah, and I think there's a, there's, there's a lot of, there's so much distraction that goes on in media.
Dr Simon Judkins: I think red flags really here, um, are, you know, we're just in a, seen a, a winter ski season in Australia, um, for the first time. You know, there's, before the end of the ski season, the, the slopes were brown.
Dr Simon Judkins: There's no snow, you know, and it's, I, I don't know the numbers, but it just seems that, um, that that is going to be over. Um, and because next year's gonna be warmer, there's gonna be an El Niño event and, and you know, every year's getting hotter and hotter. But it's not just the end of the ski season.
Dr Simon Judkins: That's, that's the [01:07:00] water supply for all of those communities around there. You know, that's what all those farms are relying on through the Ovens Valley, through all those areas, they rely on all of that snow and all of that water melting and dripping off the ice and into the rivers in that area. Now, if that's not happening, you know, all those communities and, and, and that's the sort of, you know, uh, the agriculture and produce that comes from all of those regions, that's all gonna be impacted.
Dr Simon Judkins: My son's doing a, uh, a PhD on, um, bogong moths. Um, and you know, they're all in the, the high country, and they talk about the amount of protein that bogong moths bring into that, you know, again, climate change is gonna impact that. And so all those ecosystems are gonna be infected i- in extraordinary ways as we see these regions warming.
Dr Simon Judkins: Um, and you know, we don't really understand the impacts, but the impacts are not gonna be good. Uh, and they will, um, they'll have effects, as I said, effects that we don't even really understand and that's really, really scary. . The, the other big [01:08:00] problem is that the people who are in the positions to make the decisions, all of this probably isn't gonna affect them as much as it's gonna affect, you know, the school kids we saw protesting a couple of weeks ago. It's gonna affect my kids, you know, so we should be doing this, uh, for them and empowering them and giving them voice to actually, try and wrest a bit of this control in their future,
Sharee Johnson: Is there some, is there, is there somewhere you want to direct the listeners to, to join or look at or-
Dr Simon Judkins: I think for doctors, you know, Doctors for the Environment is, is probably the go-to place.
Dr Simon Judkins: Anybody who's in a specialist, member of a college all of our colleges now have sustainability, committees. Um, and that looks at things from what we can do about decarbonizing our health systems. Um, because, you know, we need to lead by example. I think our doctors, if we're, you know, we talk about the carbon footprint of healthcare, um, I think we need to be responsible for that.
Dr Simon Judkins: But also, I think we need to engage our [01:09:00] communities in, you know, the reality of climate change and what's, and, and how it's gonna impact, um, impact their futures. Um, so, uh, there's lots of resources, um, out there, but I think the, the starting point would be your local college, DEA. Um, and there's other, other healthcare organizations like CAHA, Climate and Health Advocacy Alliance.
Dr Simon Judkins: So there's lots of organizations out there that can, people can look to.
Sharee Johnson: Mm. So you're also touching, Simon, on things like, educating yourself, all of us educating ourselves, but, but this question of leadership. Do you, do... Some people think all doctors are leaders. Some people challenge that as an idea.
Sharee Johnson: What's the, what's your take on doctors as leaders as a general comment?
Dr Simon Judkins: Um, I think in some way, uh, all doctors have a leadership role.
Sharee Johnson: Mm-hmm.
Dr Simon Judkins: Um, because, you know, I would advocate that if, for example, in my ED work, um, every time [01:10:00] you step on the floor as a, as a senior clinician, you're in a leadership role.
Dr Simon Judkins: Mm-hmm. And so you're there to set the example, set the tone for the day, you know, um, support your team, support your staff, and that, that's a leadership role, and I think people need to be comfortable with that. You can't go, um, into that team environment and go, "I'm just gonna see my patients and not worry about everybody else."
Dr Simon Judkins: So the impact that you have, uh, is, is really, really significant and really can, um, set up a, a day for success or failure. And it goes back to that conversation we had before, you know, about, um, supporting your DITs (Doctors in Training), being kind to them, listening. Um, if your team don't feel they, uh, are able to come to you for advice and, and, and you're not setting the example for the day, then, you know, it'll have negative impacts.
Dr Simon Judkins: So we're all leaders, um, but it just depends on where you wanna take that.
Sharee Johnson: Mm.
Dr Simon Judkins: Um.
Sharee Johnson: What do you think the core skills are that doctors can be developing to help them be effective in that, that leadership [01:11:00] role?
Dr Simon Judkins: , I guess similar to comments we made before, my, um, ethos, I guess, or value is, is in a leadership role is, is a Supporting, giving permission, whatever's, for people to actually do the be- be the best that they can be. Mm-hmm. And allow them to grow. I think that's really good leadership.
Dr Simon Judkins: Good leaders, I think leadership is not about you. I think good leadership is about other people. Um, you can call yourself a good leader, but, um, but everybody else might think, "Nup, that's not true." It's up to other people to make that decision about whether you're a good leader or not. So this is about, um, um, as I said, supporting other people.
Dr Simon Judkins: Uh, and, and being able to let go of things. I think one of the things we struggle with is that, you know, uh, people get into positions of, of leadership, um, and, uh, and they don't want to let that go. And I think you always need to be, [01:12:00] uh, thinking about what you can do next because there's nothing, I think there's nothing more frustrating for people, uh, in an organization to see somebody who might be just hanging around for a little bit too long and the impacts that that can have on the team.
Dr Simon Judkins: It can be quite detrimental. Um, I also think that, um, medical leadership is evolving, and I think we reflect back on some of the conversation before. I think you can be the smartest person in the room and know everything about everything, but you're not necessarily a good leader. Um, traditionally, I think in medicine we chose people for leadership roles because of, you know, their academic skills or because of the whiteness of their coat or because of...
Dr Simon Judkins: I'm being a bit facetious. Sorry about that. But, you know, leadership is different, and I think, and that's fine. That, that was, that was what we sort of grew up with. But I think in this environment where we're dealing with, uh, all the other issues we're dealing with, I think leadership is about understanding your role, um, as I keep on going back to team, 'cause everything we [01:13:00] do is about teams.
Dr Simon Judkins: Your role in that team and, uh, and how you can support, uh, uh, everybody around you. Um, that's the sort of leadership we want. We don't want, um, uh, top-down leadership, people telling people how to suck eggs. We want leadership that actually elevates everybody. Mm-hmm. Um, I think that's, that's the, that's the sort of leadership we need, particularly in the really stressful environments that we have nowadays at work.
Dr Simon Judkins: Um, we want people to turn up to work because they feel like they, they have the capacity, they have the support to achieve things and do good things. So I think that's the leadership that we need.
Sharee Johnson: Mm-hmm. So, so we can hear that team is part of what sustains you, but you're dealing with a lot of heavy things at the moment, things that you're not in control of.
Sharee Johnson: Things like the climate, things like the politics- Yeah ... of the environment for, for wage claims and so on. What is it that keeps you going? What's the thing that sustains you, keeps you putting your hand up for these roles where you have voice?
Dr Simon Judkins: I think again, it's, it's, it's, it's all comes [01:14:00] back to wanting to make a difference. Um, you know, you can have, you can take an easy path in life, you can take a more challenging path in life, I think the rewards, um, uh amazing and have been amazing and still will be amazing. And, there's nothing more rewarding for me to get, be contacted by somebody who, you know, was an intern or an international medical graduate that I haven't, you know, that I was involved in or, you know, they were, their first rotation was in my ED and, and we
Dr Simon Judkins: And there'll be conversations that, um, they have remembered that I have forgotten. Um, and they were sort of, you know, and just that level of support, like listening about and, and making them feel like, you know, they can do this. And then, you know, you get a, a, a text message or an email or something on LinkedIn five years later saying, you know, "I've just passed, you know, my, [01:15:00] my exams," or, you know, "I've just got married," or, you know, those sorts of things.
Dr Simon Judkins: And I think ... Sorry, I've got a bit emotional. Um, I think they're the sort of things that keep you going.
Sharee Johnson: Mm-hmm. Mm.
Dr Simon Judkins: Because, yeah, it's, I mean, the whole point is making a difference, isn't it? And so if you get those little things, and it doesn't have to be, you don't expect it every day. The great thing is that you'll get a surprise, and that'll just pop up and, you know, you'll go, "Well, you know, that was worthwhile."
Dr Simon Judkins: So it makes it worthwhile.
Sharee Johnson: Mm-hmm. Mm. The, the hierarchy of medicine gets a hard time, including from me sometimes, but the the beauty of that, um, apprenticeship model is this, uh, ongoing guidance and, and looking out for and bumping into again later on in career and, you know- Yeah ... meeting the people that you h- are witnessing and walking beside as they develop and, and as you described earlier, as they kind of pick up the baton from you as everybody- Yeah
Sharee Johnson: progresses. Yeah. It's quite, quite beautiful.
Dr Simon Judkins: Yeah. As I said, it's, it's, it's amazing to be, have an opportunity to actually help people, you know, achieve their goals. Um, [01:16:00] and, uh, and then hopefully they'll carry on some of the stuff that, you know, they, some of the things they might have picked up from you about what being
Dr Simon Judkins: And un- and ultimately it comes back to just to trying to be a, a good person, doesn't it? You know. Yeah. Um, that's ultimately that what we're here to do is just be good, be kind, and, and, uh, and hopefully that rubs off on people and, you know. And they tell two people, and they tell two people, and all of a sudden you change the world a bit.
Sharee Johnson: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Hear, hear, hear. That sounds like a beautiful place to finish. Is there anything we've missed that you want to point back to or any, any mantras that you want to share to send us off into the world with some hope, Simon?
Dr Simon Judkins: Uh, no. As I said, I think, you know, the message I think for, for, as far as EBA stuff is, you know, the government, you need to look after the people who are looking after the people.
Dr Simon Judkins: Mm.
Dr Simon Judkins: Um, and if you're not looking after the doctors ... You know, I, I think I said there was a quote that, uh, some article that was, you know, doctors are important and, and it was sort of, it sounded to me really, um, you know, uh, almost like I was misquoted. But, [01:17:00] but I think the whole point is, you know, we know that the governments are investing in hospitals.
Dr Simon Judkins: They're very proudly cutting ribbons on new hospitals and everything. But, but- A hospital, um, you can have the best building in the world, but the hospital's not gonna deliver care, and the hospital's not gonna do the surgery. The hospital's not gonna be there at 3:00 in the m- it's the doctors and the nurses inside.
Dr Simon Judkins: And unless you look after them, then you're never going to, um, improve the healthcare system. Doesn't matter what tech you put in there. You need to have the people in there to do it... You know, I've got this, this, this, um, T-shirt that, you know, just says be kind.
Dr Simon Judkins: And I think ultimately, um, whatever you do, um, that needs to be, you know, what you're trying to achieve. And if you're, if you look after people, you know, you, you get paid back in spades-
Sharee Johnson: Mm ...
Dr Simon Judkins: just by being a, you know, somebody who can have a conversation with support people. You know, um, you'll get, you, it, it, it's telling people what to do, you know, but support, it never works.
Dr Simon Judkins: Asking, you know, supporting people to learn, supporting people to be, achieve, [01:18:00] um, you know, um, that. And again, comes back to team. Um, you know, a champion team and is better than a team of champions. I mean, that's the thing. You want to build team, and you've got to have everybody in your team to feel important, supported.
Dr Simon Judkins: So I guess I'm going over the same things again, but yeah, I guess that's it.
Sharee Johnson: Dr. Simon Judkins, thank you very much for the work that you're doing. We wish you every success in trying to get a negotiation sealed, and for doctors to get back to what they do best, looking after the rest of us in our community in Victoria.
Sharee Johnson: Thank you very much for your time today, and good luck.
Dr Simon Judkins: Thank you so much for your time. It's been really, really enjoyable.
Speaker: If this conversation today with Dr. Judkins about the strike action that's happening in Victoria is causing anyone who is a medical person distress, anyone from a medical student all the way through, um, the various, stages of career, please know that you can phone the AMA and talk to a person on the 24/7 [01:19:00] hotline. The phone number for the confidential service is 1300 330 543, 1300 330 543.
Speaker: And peer support, uh, phone line from 8:00 AM to 10:00 PM to talk to a medical peer,
Speaker: 1300 853 338, 1300 853 338. And we will put those numbers in the show notes.
Speaker: Thank you very much to every medical person who is, helping look after our community today. May you be well
[01:20:00]
