Podcast Ep 23 Dr Jasmina Kervic
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Sharee Johnson: [00:00:00] -
Sharee Johnson: I don't want to say too much about this, uh, episode before you listen in. Dr. Jasmina Kevric brings all of her heart and soul to the conversation. It's really
Sharee Johnson: a beautiful conversation to have so soon after the Heart of Medicine at Uluru. She demonstrates, I think, in her answers to the questions that I was asking her, how, um, bringing your whole self, bringing your true [00:01:00] self, bringing your values to the work brings other people in.
Sharee Johnson: And she says that a number of times, that in her efforts at advocacy, in talking about what it's like for women returning to work, the need for things like, uh, pregnancy policies, and policies around breastfeeding, and so on. People want to join her in those endeavors because they can tell from her storytelling, the authentic, uh, desire she has to contribute to the greater good and to bring, uh, things that are going to make working as a doctor easier, more effective, to, collective attention.
Sharee Johnson: She brings so much genuine heart to those things that she's seeking improvement on, that people want to join her. Her story of being a refugee, of surviving war in Bosnia, and coming to Australia, and going with the flow of life, as she puts it, I think is, uh, really, uh, an inspiration and encouragement to us [00:02:00] all.
Sharee Johnson: And she finishes with the mantra of never be frightened to start again. I think it's a very gentle and powerful story that we hear from Dr. Kevric today on the podcast. I hope that as you're listening to her, you can feel her courage and, , what she shares with us about ambition and advocacy and service as a, a powerful combination, is gonna stay with me at least for a very long time.
Sharee Johnson: Welcome to today's episode of Recalibrating with Sharee Johnson, Dr. Jasmina Kevric, showing us the way with her heart and her clarity
Sharee Johnson: Kevric is a Melbourne-based specialist breast surgeon who also is an advocate and a community leader. Alongside her surgical practice, Jasmina is passionate about improving access to healthcare, supporting patients through some of life's most vulnerable moments, and contributing to broader conversations about equity, leadership, and [00:03:00] community.
Sharee Johnson: . Originally arriving in Australia as a refugee from Bosnia, Jasmina's lived experience has shaped her commitment to service and advocacy. She has been actively involved in refugee and multicultural initiatives, mentoring, storytelling, and community leadership.
Sharee Johnson: Her contributions have been recognized through multiple awards, including this year being named a recipient of the Les Murray Award for refugee recognition. Outside of medicine, Jasmina is a mother and enjoys creating meaningful conversations through writing, speaking, and social media.
Sharee Johnson: On this episode, Dr. Kevric shares insights on leadership, resilience, building a purpose-driven career, and what's possible when ambition and service come together.
Sharee Johnson: Jasmina, I'm so delighted to have this time with you. Thank you for coming to Recalibrating with Sharee Johnson.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Great. Thank you so much for having me, Sharee. This is really wonderful to see you again.
Sharee Johnson: Well, we were remembering that it's 2021, we think, that we were at a conference both [00:04:00] talking on, on the stage, so it's way too long.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Way too long. Um,
Sharee Johnson: congratulations on all that you've achieved since then. I think, um, your story has so many examples of recalibrating. You are now a consultant surgeon. I wonder if you can tell us what's it like to be a surgeon?
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Oh, being a surgeon. I always say it's the most wonderful career in the entire world, but- Mm ... I'm a little bit biased. But I do feel truly that it is a, a great, great career and a job.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: You know, I wake up every morning and I get the privilege to look after patients, um, who are in some of their most vulnerable times in their lives. Mm. And I get to be the one to help them through that, um, which is, you know, an enormous responsibility. I always view it as, you know, privilege, a responsibility, and it's something that is so deeply meaningful to me.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Mm. Um, and I, that's why I'm such a big advocate for, you know, other [00:05:00] people, women in particular, to join this field because it's truly wonderful.
Sharee Johnson: Mm. I can't help as a non-surgeon thinking it must be scary sometimes as well.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Yeah, absolutely. Sharee, it is, you know, when you meet someone and they are in front of you and they're fearful for their life.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Because often, you know, I, I work in the cancer field and, um, women with breast cancer present to me and they're truly scared. Mm. And so it is, it can be scary, um, you know, being scared that the patients might die, um, because of the progression of the disease or, you know, how, um, what the biology is, is for the patient.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: But I feel that with, um, a great team behind me and, you know, great patient, um, connection, that often, you know, the results are, are promising, the results are, meaningful to all of us. So yeah, it can be scary, but it is, um, truly, truly wonderful [00:06:00] job.
Sharee Johnson: Mm. Mm. So we're gonna, uh, find out, I think in this conversation some more about what those pros and cons are.
Sharee Johnson: Mm-hmm. Was it a big decision to become a surgeon, or was that clear for you through medical school that that was your direction?
Dr Jasmina Kevric: It was very clear very early on for me, um, Sharee. I grew up in Bosnia and, uh, you know, very early in my childhood I was exposed to a war. And, you know, the trauma that comes with a war of seeing, um, you know, death and, and hatred and, you know, vulnerability so early on.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Uh, there were many events during that time that really shaped that initial, uh, desire and, and need to, uh, become a doctor as I was watching others, help and, and save my family members. So it was, um, it shaped from a very, very early, age.
Sharee Johnson: It's very hard for me to comprehend what that must be like. It [00:07:00] sounds like you can remember vividly being in Bosnia and then arriving in Australia. What was that like as a small person? I think you were, you were six?
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Yeah, so I was, uh, I was six years old when the war started in Bosnia.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: So before I, you know, remember that night when the bridge collapsed due to the artillery strikes, I had a, you know, wonderful childhood in Bosnia.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: I was surrounded by love, family, you know, great upbringing. Um, I knew what it was like to have a nice childhood where I didn't fear, um, you know, the airplanes circulating. Um, and so it, it, it was a, it was good for me to know that from the beginning because then I was plunged into a world of uncertainty, a world of, um, vulnerability.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: And so that, uh, part of my life, um, although it was difficult, I knew that as a family we [00:08:00] could get through that because I knew that there were possibilities of getting back to that,
Dr Jasmina Kevric: wonderful sort of family life. Mm-hmm. Um, and when I came to Australia, I was 14 years old.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: And I couldn't speak English and I was, uh, you know, I moved a lot throughout my 14 years, um, from Bosnia to Croatia, um, throughout that region, and then to Germany and then to Australia as well. So there was a lot of recalibrations throughout that very early on, um, life.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: But, um, it's main thing that I, when I reflect back what I learnt, it's, okay to start again. And I never fear starting again because I know that, you know, you get through it.
Sharee Johnson: That seems like an in- extraordinary mantra. So simple- mm ... and so grounding.
Sharee Johnson: Mm.
Sharee Johnson: Do you feel like you learned that from your parents? When you were moving your parents were making these decisions to, to go to the next country or to immigrate or was that the kind of underlying message, "We'll be okay"?
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Yeah, absolutely. You know, my parents, they, [00:09:00] we were very close and we're still very close, and they, um, always included us in every decision that they made throughout that time because it was such a profound decision and profound circumstances that they wanted us to know what was happening. Mm. Um, so that we are not afraid or scared of what was coming.
Speaker 2: Mm.
Speaker 2: And so, you know, watching my parents and particularly my mum, you know, as another woman now, um, seeing her make decisions like that to take, you know, two young children and- You know, move through the, what we call, you know, an en- enemy territory to get to the safe land. You know, it was, it was transforming for me to view that, and that was for five years, you know?
Speaker 2: And so the bravery that they showed, um, to, well, to me during that time really stayed with me, and I knew that, you know, with, with, you know, brave hearts you can achieve [00:10:00] anything.
Sharee Johnson: Mm. A- as a psychologist, I feel, you know, very clear that these early scripts, these early messages that we get become so much a part of our identity and, you know, I think u- u- using the word bravery, I'm thinking about courage as I'm listening to you, this kind of inbuilt early- Mm
Sharee Johnson: lessons of courage and, and the kind of the fire, where the steel has been fired, in a way in your family and in those early experiences. What about when you arrived in Australia at 14, no English? Mm. What do you remember about that time?
Dr Jasmina Kevric: I arrived to Australia, um, and I saw the houses. You know, they were quite different.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: The land was quite different. Um, I was expecting a lot of kangaroos, as everybody was telling us to- Yeah ... expect any kangaroos. Yeah. So, but the first thing I really realized is how peaceful it was here. Mm. You know, I didn't, um, wake up in the night thinking there's gonna be a, an attack, a bomb, you know, going off.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Um, but I do remember on Australia Day [00:11:00] that when the airplanes started, um, you know, coming to sky that I was like, "Oh, are we being under attack now? What is going on here?" Ah. So-
Sharee Johnson: The Roulettes. When the, when the Roulettes were flying over. Yeah.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Ah. So that was a, um, you know, a ... It just, it reflected to me how, um, uh, that upbringing during the war, it stays with you for a little bit longer.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Um, but it was, uh, you know, wonderful to come to a country like Australia. Mm. And I went to Noble Park Secondary College, which was, um, a public school. I couldn't speak any English, of course, but I ha- I was surrounded by, um, very similar, um, you know, young people around me from very similar backgrounds, you know, refugee stories.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: So I felt very much like I was at home. Mm. And we had incredible teachers who knew how to navigate this sort of environment, um, and the students that they had, and I was very fortunate, um, to be in that school. [00:12:00]
Sharee Johnson: Mm. My, one of my best mates at college actually went to Noble Park Secondary School, so- Did
Sharee Johnson: she
Sharee Johnson: really?
Sharee Johnson: Yeah. Have a- Oh, wow ... quick flash back up for her there. Say hello to Nat if you happen to be listening.
Sharee Johnson: Oh, amazing.
Speaker 2: This, uh, environment that you're describing where there are other people from lots of different backgrounds, I think very multicultural school and, and area. Um, it, it sounds like what you're describing is there was room for post-traumatic growth as well as to, to recognize and, and support and understand that there was trauma in that community as well.
Speaker 2: Did you go from school straight into university? How did you ... Your English developed really quickly and you were in medicine school four years later. Is that what happened?
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Yeah, that's exactly what happened. I, you know, I, I loved school from a very early age. I absolutely loved learning. And so because I didn't have any schooling during the first, you know, I guess, 14 years, other than home schooled from my parents, I was absolutely, you know, [00:13:00] hungry and thirsty for knowledge and to, to be educated, for that education, and I embraced everything I was given in that school.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: I, you know, studied day and night. I just loved it so much. Um, and there was never really ... I, I didn't know how to get into medicine. I didn't know that you had to do well in VCE, you know, you had to get a certain score. I, I did not know any of that, um- And so when I got to year 10, you know, I, I got to choose subjects and I chose the ones that I absolutely loved, and th- that included maths and, you know, chemistry and physics.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: I was just, um, you know, fascinated by those subjects. And so I, I did really well and I, you know, got a, uh, first round offer to study medicine at Melbourne Uni, and I got a scholarship. So, and, and that's where it, you know, it began, um, at that point where I was like, "Oh, this is actually possible."
Sharee Johnson: Yeah.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: I can become, you know, the doctor that I hoped to become.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: But it was ... It sort of ... [00:14:00] I just followed the flow of life really. I was never planning anything concrete. It was just a flow of life.
Sharee Johnson: It must have been, I'm doing all sorts of projecting Jasmina , but it must have been a, an extra- extraordinarily exciting time for your parents to think that, um, things were working out, if you like.
Sharee Johnson: And I'm sure there were things that were challenging as well, but, but there were these opportunities that were happening.
Sharee Johnson: Yeah.
Sharee Johnson: Is there something that was a bit surreal or amazing about that? Or do you feel like no, the kind of living of this experience of learning language and learning a new place every day, you know, there's no real surprises, it's just a natural progression as you described?
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Yeah. I mean, when we first went into Germany when I was 10 years old, it was very similar, where we were, you know, thrown into s- that different society suddenly. We had to learn the language. So I had that, uh, experience already. You know, that is just what is now expected. When you're in Australia, you do the same thing.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Mm. You embrace the [00:15:00] culture. You know, you take, uh, every opportunity you can, you can get and, um, and you learn, um, from those around you. And I think it ... Of course, there were challenges. You know, I would ... My parents would go to a learning school to learn English, and then I would go to school to learn English.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: And, uh, but we always did it together. Mm. I think that's the, the, the key to, to where I am today, is that I always felt that we were doing things together as a family, and we supported each other through that. Mm. And without that, I would not be here today.
Sharee Johnson: Mm. Mm. I, I want to really pause there. It's so, it's such a salient point, in coaching, doctors often tell me how much responsibility they feel for all the, the, the effort that the whole family has made for them in their, in their medical training a- and the responsibility of that.
Sharee Johnson: And also just the joy of that, ... family and support and, and remembering, I think sometimes as, as we become [00:16:00] expert or professional in our chosen career, we sort of think we have to do it all on our own. And actually remembering this connection and support and the community around us is- Mm-hmm
Sharee Johnson: in a way, what makes it so joyful. It's what- Mm ... what, why we want to keep going. It's not the same to just keep going by ourselves. It's not as half as interesting from, from my perspective. Um, how many languages do you speak, Jasmina?
Dr Jasmina Kevric: So Yugoslavia has broken up into many different countries, but as a default, we speak all of them.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: You know? Mm-hmm. Croatian, Serbian, Bosnian, uh, Slovenian, Macedonian, and then German and English. So yeah, it's, it's nice to be able to, you know, use a few languages here and there, and particularly connecting with my patients when I do see them.
Sharee Johnson: Right. That's what I'm thinking about then. Mm. That this opportunity for a multilingual surgeon- Yeah
Sharee Johnson: must have great benefits for your patient community.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Yeah. And it p- it really does make them feel more at ease- Mm ... 'cause they, he, you know, have that, um, the primary [00:17:00] language they can default to. 'Cause it's- Mm ... often, you know, as ... I don't know if you know any, um, other languages, Sharee, but, uh, often what happens is when you're speaking, you know, your native language, you, to get to the next language, you sort of interpret from the native to the next one.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: And so it's, it's, it's just you don't have to think when you're speaking your native language,
Sharee Johnson: No, that's right. I, I'm embarrassed to say that I learned Italian for six years at school, Jasmina, and I can't speak it now. I have a fantasy of one day going to Italy and living there for a couple of years to see if I can get that- Beautiful.
Sharee Johnson: going again. Yeah.
Sharee Johnson: So you, you got a scholarship, you got into university, uh, at Melbourne University to, to study medicine. Mm. And, uh, then things rolled on, the, the flow of life. And you found yourself applying for training programs.
Sharee Johnson: Mm-hmm.
Sharee Johnson: And, and how was that process for you?
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Yeah. Once I got into medicine, it was the first time really in my life, you know, having experienced all of these, um, different, um, you know, barriers [00:18:00] that life can throw at you, kind of moving through them.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: But getting into medicine was the first time where I felt truly like there were solid barriers in front of me.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: And, um, it wasn't just- You know, the, the exams, the multiple exams and, and, um, the enormous sacrifices that is required to become a surgeon. But it was also the mental load of, um, navigating, um, an environment where you felt like you weren't supposed to be there is the main, main, um- Sort of experience that I had early on.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Coming from a refugee back- background and getting into medicine, there was no one like that in medicine when I was going through.
Speaker 2: Mm.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: I'm happy to say that now things have changed. There's more inclusivity and there's more diversity. But, you know, 20 years ago it was, um, it was [00:19:00] different.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Mm.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: And so I felt like, um, do I belong there? So there was a long, lot of questions in my mind going through about belonging and what it means for me to be in this new environment. And I knew, you know, that five-year-old girl, um, who set on on becoming a surgeon, I knew I had to be true to that and maintain that value of who I was.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: But, you know, when you're told by your peers and often mentors that surgery is not a place for women- you question a lot of things, and you suddenly question this new environment you're thrown into. And it's almost like is this another type of war for me in a different way? Mm. And there's all these barriers I need to go through again to get to the other side.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Um, there were wonderful things. I met, you know, beautiful people throughout that journey, and the patients were amazing to look after. But the system was something that I felt was another type of, you know, [00:20:00] challenge ahead that I had to get through over the next, you know, 10, 20 years.
Sharee Johnson: Mm. Did you have any women who were in front of you that you could see?
Sharee Johnson: Did you have any female surgeons that you met on placement or in any of your rotations? Could you see- I think- ... any examples of people like you?
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Well, there was, uh, one woman that, uh, was a surgeon during that time. Um, but it was, it was sort of, you know, still one of the kind of boys at that time.
Speaker 2: Mm.
Speaker 2: And when another woman t- you know, sort of shares to say that this is probably not what she would've chosen, you know, had she another chance, sort of makes you, um, reassess and think.
Speaker 2: Mm.
Speaker 2: Did I have envisioned, uh, what I'm seeing? Mm. I certainly, you know, when I looked back and, and saw those medics, um, you know, save my grandparents and, and save my family during the time where an [00:21:00] artillery strike happened and they were wounded and bleeding and, you know, the whole, um, uh, scene unfolded.
Speaker 2: I never for one second thought I as a woman can't do that or, you know. I saw women do that, so why am I suddenly being told- You know, in Australia, one of the greatest countries in the world , that I can't do this because I was a girl.
Speaker 2: Mm.
Speaker 2: And it, it took me a, a while to sort of get through that process to understand where it was all coming from, why, um, why I can't perform something that has nothing to do with my gender.
Sharee Johnson: Can you, can you share that with us? What did you ... What conclusions did you draw? What did you draw on to keep that vision alive? 'Cause I, I, I have a bit of a bee in my bonnet at the moment about helping doctors get very clear about their vision, 'cause I really feel like we don't- Mm ... channel our energy effectively if we don't know what the vision is.
Sharee Johnson: And you had a very clear vision that was now [00:22:00] being challenged by the establishment, if you like.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Yeah. It was ... Yeah, it was challenged, um, in profound ways, but I had to get back to my roots. Every time I encountered a, um, you know, setback or, um, or a mindset change, I had to get back to my roots. Mm. So I would either go and work with the community, refugee community- Mm
Dr Jasmina Kevric: and, um, and support them, and navigate that environment together with them so that I don't lose a, that person that I was. I didn't want the system to change me. Mm. And I didn't want, um, to become someone else in, in the system or lose the passion, um, and ambition that I had to, to become the surgeon. And I went and volunteered overseas.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: I volunteered in Myanmar, I volunteered in India, um, and worked with surgeons there, [00:23:00] female surgeons. As I saw surgeons from Japan, from, you know, all over the world coming into this makeshift hospitals across, um, India, um, and Myanmar and I saw that it, what was possible, that it was of course possible.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Mm. And so when I came back to Australia, you know, it's, it was very difficult to then change and shift my, my thinking because I, would not believe what I was being told.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Mm.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: And so that way it was easy to get through the system and make it towards to now.
Sharee Johnson: It's a beautiful story of you really nourishing your own soul.
Sharee Johnson: Mm. That's what I feel like when I
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Absolutely that. I had to. I had to nourish that soul in ways that, um, um, was a, a, away from the system. I had to escape the system. Mm. Um-
Sharee Johnson: How did you know this wisdom? How did you have this sense?
Sharee Johnson: What was the thing that helped you [00:24:00] redirect in this way as such a young person? You know, we're talking about you in your early 20s.
Sharee Johnson: Mm.
Sharee Johnson: Was somebody guiding you? Were you, did you have a sense that your intuition knew best? H- how did this happen?
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Yeah, it was a combination of intuition and having friends in the field of meditation.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Mm-hmm.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: And meditation with that intuition really- gave me the, the platform and, um, and kind of talked to me. Mm.
Speaker 2: And, you know, you know, gave me what my heart really was after.
Speaker 2: Mm.
Speaker 2: And that's why I always say it's so important to know people outside of medicine because in medicine you-
Sharee Johnson: So important.
Sharee Johnson: So important.
Sharee Johnson: I think we can't actually underline that enough.
Sharee Johnson: Yeah.
Sharee Johnson: The more I go on, the more I believe that, yeah.
Sharee Johnson: Yeah.
Sharee Johnson: So, so you took these trips. Had you got on the training program yet when you were doing this volunteer work? Were you already in the, in the surgical [00:25:00] training stream?
Dr Jasmina Kevric: No, that was as an unaccredited registrar and- Okay
Dr Jasmina Kevric: as you know, Sharee, those are the most difficult and uncertain years of our lives, and I was an unaccredited registrar for three years. Mm-hmm. And so it was the greatest growth came in those years. Not just, um, you know, as a technical skills and abilities as a doctor, but also as a, you know, the mental sort of shifts and- Mm
Dr Jasmina Kevric: and the emotional side as well because you're encountering so much various and so much-
Speaker 2: Mm ...
Speaker 2: so much in, in that time, um, that you grow profoundly during that time as well.
Sharee Johnson: And I, I imagine that you're sharing this with the trainees that you work- Mm ... with now.
Sharee Johnson: , You had this wisdom as a young person.
Sharee Johnson: Now, in reflection looking back, what's the thing that you would like people in those first five years out of med school to really take to heart from this-
Sharee Johnson: Mm ...
Sharee Johnson: part of your experience?
Dr Jasmina Kevric: I always, um, tell my trainees to know their why. Mm. You know, why is it [00:26:00] that they want to be a surgeon, or why is it that they want to, um, you know, be a doctor?
Dr Jasmina Kevric: That is one of the most in- important and fundamental, um, you know, knowledge base to know because then you can use that to shape your, not only your career but your entire life.
Speaker 2: Mm.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: So know thy, thy why, is really, really important. And then I ensure that they never navigate away from that because that's their true self.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: That's who they are, and that's what it's going to make them the unique doctor that we need in healthcare. Uh, and staying true to that. Um, but also being aware and being transparent with them of how difficult it is to get through this process.
Speaker 2: Mm.
Speaker 2: You know, especially nowadays where we have more doctors coming into the system.
Speaker 2: You know, there's more medical students. Um, there's not, um, the same growth of training positions, of accredited positions, of consultant positions. So we have this huge bottleneck coming up, and you have [00:27:00] registrars, unaccredited registrars in their, probably some of their prime time of their lives. You know, they're young and healthy and, and ambitious and energetic.
Speaker 2: And so they're stuck in this world of uncertainty. And, you know, that if, if we are to support the registrars or doctors in any part of their life, this is the most crucial part, because we lose so many doctors in this area.
Sharee Johnson: Well, there's a lot here. Before we move too far, I want to go back to your, uh, also tapping back into the refugee community.
Sharee Johnson: Mm.
Sharee Johnson: That during this unaccredited time, you were also kind of going back to your roots, going to your- Mm ... your, um, if you like, your family community, your origin community. Mm. Um, medicine was a new community that you were, uh, b- belonging to or wanting to belong to. Mm.
Sharee Johnson: But you already had this community that you were very much a part of.
Sharee Johnson: Mm.
Sharee Johnson: And, and that work goes on, Yasmin, for you. You, you remain and continue to be, so much so that you've been awarded this year with the, [00:28:00] uh, recognition of your work with the refugee community.
Sharee Johnson: Mm.
Sharee Johnson: I love that this award exists. I think, um, awards like this that are actively promoting inclusion and diversity the fact that we have this incredible resource in our community of people- Mm ... from all over the world, what a shame it is to not tap into it and, and use it. What, what's it mean for you? Can you, educate us about what we need to really appreciate and understand and know about our refugee community?
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Mm.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Oh, thank you so much for that question, Sharee. Um, it really, I just, I feel so, um, much right now i- in my heart when you, we talk about this. Because, um, you know, uh, as one, this award, you know, the Les Murray, Award for Refugee Recognition, it's awarded from, um, the UNHCR as well as in combination with SBS.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Mm.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: And it's really recognizing someone in the community who is giving back, [00:29:00] um, and someone who's come here as a refugee. And so the first thing to, to share is that- I don't looks like someone who could be a refugee. You know, I've got blonde hair, I've got green eyes. I've, you know ... But anybody could find themselves a refugee anywhere in the world.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Particularly in this current unstable, you know, uncertain world that we live in, anyone could be displaced-
Dr Jasmina Kevric: and sent to, you know, across the world. So being aware of that and recognizing that when someone comes to Australia as a refugee, it is often not because they choose to do so. It is often, you know, that they leave so much behind when they come to a new country, and they come often, um, seeking a second chance and willing to contribute, um, and give back, you know, to support this new home that they have.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: And I think, um, it's, it's so important that we just open our [00:30:00] hearts, if nothing else, and allow them and give them this second chance. Um, and I always say to my refugee community that never waste this second chance.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Mm.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: You're given opportunities, you're given education, safety, healthcare. Make the most of it, and don't waste it, and embrace it.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: And give back, you know, as much as you can, and to shape this, this country to, you know, even better place. Because I feel like together if we live in this, safety and understanding, then we truly can, can grow as a nation together.
Speaker 2: Mm.
Speaker 2: So it's an absolute privilege to be in this position that I am to, to share this, you know, with so many people.
Speaker 2: And, and I do hope that, you know, people just, if nothing, just open their hearts.
Sharee Johnson: I hope everybody's hearing that message Jasmina having just come back from the Heart of Medicine in [00:31:00] Uluru, I mean, it was just so evident that people, all people, it doesn't matter how many letters you have after your name
Sharee Johnson: Mm that people want to be seen and heard and validated and recognized. Mm. Um, and that when, when that does happen, th- they, they want to connect and contribute and be a part of something. That this belonging that you spoke about at the beginning is so vital to our capacity to reach our potential, to, to share our gifts.
Sharee Johnson: Doesn't really matter what language we're using, uh- W- we all want the same thing. We wanna be seen and, and be a part of something together. Mm-hmm. We're social beings in that way.
Sharee Johnson: When you were going back to your refugee community as an unaccredited, uh, registrar and tapping that vein, you know, kind of remembering, "This is where I come from," or, "These are my people," or whatever the language was- Mm-hmm
Sharee Johnson: In your own heart, what, what did that do? Was, was it, it was stabilizing you somehow? Was- Yeah ... it was steeling you to [00:32:00] keep going? What, what was the impact?
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Yeah.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Yeah. Um, I felt like they believed in me.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Mm-hmm.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: You know? They looked at me, and they believed, um, in my potential. And I always felt like i- if I can get through this, and if I can show them the possibilities, I could draw them into that as well.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: And so often I didn't do this for myself. I was doing it for our greater community.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: If I can get, make it, they can make it. It was, it was, you know, it was that, that connection with them that really, you know, pushed me along the way.
Sharee Johnson: Mm. Mm. So, um, the other thing I'm noticing in, in this part of your story is the kind of reciprocal thing that you're, you're getting energy from- Mm
Sharee Johnson: the community, and you're giving energy to the community. And that's going backwards and forwards all of the time.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Mm. Absolutely. Absolutely. We were very connected and, you know, and, and it, it was just because, you know, that's where the passion is. It's just who, who, who I [00:33:00] was that I was drawn to that.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: And I had, of course, my family as well to, to, you know, help me and, um, believe in me as well. Mm. Because I feel like that is, is the fundamental y- for someone to believe in your capabilities. 'Cause it does give you that extra energy. So then when you go into a system that sort of tries to m- minimize you, um, or diminish your light, so to say, then you have this extra, you know, fuel that kind of-
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Mm
Dr Jasmina Kevric: guides you through.
Sharee Johnson: Mm. So, so you get into training, the sur- surgical training stream somewhere along the line. Mm. You line up for a whole lot more hurdles, difficult exams and rotations and so on. What was that like for you as a young woman? You know, you're in your mid-20s. You have been to other countries and experienced what it's like, what medicine's like in other places.
Sharee Johnson: But now you just need to knuckle down and focus and- mm ... get through the exams. How was that, that few years?
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Well, I was, I was very ambitious.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Mm.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: You know? Everyone [00:34:00] sees ambition as a, you know, a dirty word, but I always felt like being ambitious and then you add service to it, it's, you know, it is service is the greater good.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: And there's nothing wrong in my mind with being ambitious. Um, but I think as women we're always, you know, viewed differently when you're an ambitious woman and you want to succeed in your life. And so, but I was that. Um, and I was able to, you know, put my head down, do what I need to do, get through the exams, get onto the surgical training program.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: I remember doing, you know, a master's degree during the day and then doing night shifts at night, um, as a surgical registrar. I was very hardworking, you know, and, and I had the energy for that. Um- Yeah ... so, uh, you know, although you encounter all these barriers, but because you're hardworking, the people around you can see that and how much you want to achieve.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: And also once you're able to invite people into your story, particularly my mentors, [00:35:00] and share with them what my journey was and why I'm doing what I'm doing, you know, it creates that, um, um, that beautiful, you know, mentor-mentee kind of relationships. And then I was able to have the, the referees that believed in me.
Speaker 2: Mm. And
Speaker 2: those are the, the group that supported me into surgical training. And I always felt like once I was on a surgical training, um, then I could finally breathe. I could just stop for a second and just breathe, you know? Mm. Why mention to the next stages of my career and life.
Sharee Johnson: Yeah. I love that you could do, you could see that and savor that at the time.
Sharee Johnson: Let's talk about ambition a bit more. Mm. Why is this word different for women?
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Well, being ambitious means you're out to succeed. And success, I suppose, is, um, viewed differently based on your gender. You know, a successful woman would often be viewed as someone who's perhaps, [00:36:00] you know, more gendered sort of, um, view having children and, um, you know, a- and along those lines.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Whereas being a successful female surgeon, you know, having the ambition to become that is, is, you know, could be viewed as it's not a place where women should be. So you... There's those stereotyping, you know, there's the unconscious bias to come into place. And so, you know, um, I think it's, things are changing a lot now because our younger generation certainly, you know, will, you know, own it a bit more.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: But, um, yes, I always felt like I had to portray a less ambitious part of me to the world, but still maintain that ambition underneath when I'm actually working and studying.
Sharee Johnson: Keep the fire burning for your own purposes. Yeah.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Yeah.
Sharee Johnson: Some people say that the system was built for men by men who had wives at home- Mm-hmm
Sharee Johnson: who could do all the things that [00:37:00] allowed them to work, you know, um, 36 hours straight, or to work- Mm ... at nighttime or to work, um, you know, far away or all, all these things that- Mm ... could happen with the nuclear family in the traditional kind of structure, if you like, with the man being the person that goes to work.
Sharee Johnson: And that now with more women, half of, half of our doctors are women, half of our- Mm ... medical students are women, um, that we need to change the system to respond to that. Are there things in the system that you can see are shifting as a result of having 50/50 gender spread of doctors?
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Yes, absolutely. Um, probably not as fast as I would like it to, you know. Um, but, you know, the real wake-up call for me of what the system, um, or how the system was designed more for men as opposed to women was when I became a mother in, as an, an, as a accredited SET trainee registrar. And suddenly, you know, I was exposed to a different part of the system that I hadn't even thought about because [00:38:00] as a, as an ambitious young woman, I never thought about children.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Mm.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: You know, the only, first time I thought about I want to be a mother was when I met my husband. And I was, I was a SET 1 at that point, and I thought, "Okay, you know, I would like to have, you know, children in my life now." And then it just, um, you know, a whole different set of, um, barriers started developing.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Mm. And they've probably always been there. It was just I've, I've never seen them because I wasn't experiencing it. Um, and so I suddenly realized there was such a thing as a pregnancy penalty. There was a thing as a motherhood penalty. There was a returning to work penalty. All of these penalties, you know, stacked against you because simply you're a woman.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Um, and I felt like I had to advocate for that change. Um, and so when I was on maternity leave with my first baby, uh, I realized that we have absolutely [00:39:00] no data of what parents in medicine go through, you know, women in medicine go through. And I designed a study with my colleagues and finally had some Australian data through the survey.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: And probably wasn't surprising, but it was shocking to see how much, um, uh, over, you know, many, many decades the w- the women were exposed to this, gendered system.
Sharee Johnson: And what did you find in your study? Because I know you found some things around, um, surgical training and fertility and, uh- Yeah
Sharee Johnson: a- and this, these parenting questions. Can you tell us- Yeah ...
Sharee Johnson: the
Sharee Johnson: study?
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Yeah. So we divided that into three categories, which included, um, general practitioners, physician, and surgeons. But on the whole, in general, doctors, um, were delaying motherhood because of, uh, work.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: They were experiencing higher infertility rates than the general population. They had more IVF, um, [00:40:00] babies than the general population. Um, the pregnancy complications were very high. Almost half of our participants had a pregnancy complication. Um, there was very little, um, support when they were returning to work, um, post-motherhood, um, and maternity leave.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: And almost all of them said that there were hardly any breastfeeding facilities at the hospitals or where they were working. And so, you know, that in itself was very eye-opening, you know, to see what the women have been navigating through. And finally, this data was exposing that to a certain degree Um, and I remember when I was presenting it, it's, um, you know, a lot of conferences, the discussions were, you know, um, coming from a personal experiences where women were truly sharing what they were experiencing.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: And suddenly we had this influx of, you know, um, of stories, of data, of advocacy. And, um, it's great that now, you know, as a result of [00:41:00] all these studies that we had done, , the College of Surgeons has a breastfeeding policy now that we have to have breastfeeding rooms and s- storage for the milk for the returning mothers, um, when they're back at work.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: So there's definitely progress happening. We do need a breastfeeding, um, and, and pregnancy, particularly the pregnancy policy, um, in general across the board. I know the AMA has their own guidelines and policies, but they're not implemented, um, across the board in, in every hospital. So there's a lot we can do, we need to do.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: But it certainly, was a start and eye-opening for me.
Sharee Johnson: It's quite shocking. I, I know that if there are people listening who aren't in health, they will be shocked by this. There are a lot of lag indicators for health around, uh, you know, that other industries have had for 20 and 30 years- Mm
Dr Jasmina Kevric: around wellbeing and these kinds of things like pregnancy policies and, you know- Mm ... length of shift and, and so on, um, that health doesn't have. And it's, it's quite mind-boggling to think that we're people who talk about health and are interested in health, [00:42:00] and we don't have this kind of progress. Do you feel like, um, there's at least a platform now that there are places and spaces where these conversations are happening
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Oh, absolutely, yes. There's, a lot of, um, talks designed by multiple groups, , across, um, medicine. There's the AMA, the, um, the doctors group, the Accredited Registrar group, unaccredited registrars group. You know, Victorian, um, women's societies, they have, you know, fertility talks, um, pregnancy talks. And we have, um, a lot of women now, more women in medicine and in surgery who are able, um, to speak to this and who are able to, um, advise, um, you know, doctors in training and the medical students coming through.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: And- You know, it's be transparent with what's ahead and provide some tips and tricks of how to navigate that.
Sharee Johnson: Mm. I was very surprised. I won't name which college, but I was speaking at an ASM for one of the colleges, uh, a couple of years ago, and as a, a part of that, I did some research, [00:43:00] uh, into the trainee programs and how many, uh, part-timers there were- Mm
Sharee Johnson: on the training programs, and I was really gobsmacked at how few, uh, part-time positions there were. There were, one or two at fifth year and sixth year who were- Mm ... part-time. And, and that to me seemed a very basic, simple, excuse me, way that, some strides could have been made fairly quickly and easily.
Sharee Johnson: So I hope anybody who's listening from the colleges and, and these kind of decision-making bodies might, keep moving these issues up the agenda. As well as ambition, you talk about service. Can we talk a bit about that? We're really talking about your values at some level- Mm
Sharee Johnson: I thinkJasmina. You know, that you have this really, uh, character quality that is about service that comes from when you were a little girl-
Sharee Johnson: Mm ... and your own history, your own experiences. Is it a counterweight to ambition? Can we have one without the other? How do, how do you think about these things?
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Well, I think, you know, am- ambition itself is, um, when it's used for the greater [00:44:00] good.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: You know, I think that's ... And service is, to me, one of the best ways because it's about giving back. Mm.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: So you're creating something and then giving back. Um, and you're using that fuel, ambition, to get you there. And so in that way everybody wins in some ways. And so service, you know, and being able to, uh, improve other people's lives goes really, like you said, back to where I grew up as a young girl when I had, people in my life during the war where we were given, you know, second chances and, and, um, um, and a better way to live as well.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: It does go back to, you know, that upbringing and the experience that I had gone through, and how much it improves your life when someone gives that helping hand, that service to you. And so that's how I sort of view that as a- Mm ... a fundamental part of who I am.
Sharee Johnson: Mm-hmm. And it struck me when I was looking at your bio that it's not [00:45:00] just a list of, you know, accreditations and, and achievements, that y- you're very deliberate in inserting in your bio the kind of person you want to be or who you want to be known as. I really, I, I just applaud that. I think it's, it was a delight to read your bio, on that front foot way of saying, "This is who I am.
Sharee Johnson: This is what I bring." Mm. And advocacy is the other part that is there. Service, ambition and advocacy. What's important about now that you are, um, at a certain position in the hierarchy shall we say? You have a little more influence. Um- Mm ... you have proven yourself through all the medical hoops that to get where you are.
Sharee Johnson: What's important now at this part of your career when it comes to advocacy?
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Yeah. Um, I do feel like I'm somewhere now along the chain - Yeah
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Maybe I have, um, you know, developed a wisdom or two that I can share. Um, and hopefully, um, those who can change the [00:46:00] system are listening. But yeah, just going back, um, Sharee to, what you were saying. The accolades and the awards, they are just, um, um, a recognition of the work. I, I never go out, you know, in, in, in search for that. Mm. It sort of just comes as, as a part of, um, what I do.
Sharee Johnson: It's a natural byproduct.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: It's a natural byproduct. Yeah, a- absolutely.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: And That's the other thing I share with my trainees, is if you are who you are and you're true to yourself, things will happen.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Mm.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Um, as long as you follow your own path and, you know, your natural path. And I think that hopefully resona- resonates with a lot of the listeners, and hopefully they can see that in, in their own journeys and, and stories.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: But with the advocacy, um, again, I just feel like I'm just speaking, um, about something that I've experienced and hoping to improve the system. You know, I, I suppose you'd call that advocacy, but that's just my [00:47:00] natural, you know, self. And I am, I am advocating for, um, a better way Uh, particularly the ones that I experience personally.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: And if I experience that and if I feel that there is a better way we can, you know, do a certain thing, for example, if we, are breastfeeding or, expressing in the, in the toilets, there are certainly better ways to, to do that. And so, you know, just being outspoken about that is, is I suppose, you know, um, what I advocate for.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: But that's just who I am.
Sharee Johnson: Mm. Mm. Yeah, you can't separate these things. And it's, um... I think it's important for the rest of us to notice, though, whether it's clear to you or not, we've been talking about naming what is a real experience. That if we, if we don't name that women don't get supported when they come back from having their babies, and that that's part of why they're finding it hard to have a longer [00:48:00] career in medicine- Mm
Sharee Johnson: then that's a loss for everybody.
Sharee Johnson: Yeah.
Sharee Johnson: Um, and if we don't name that, you know, there is bullying or harassment or discrimination, then a- again, we lose people who are, um, keen and passionate- Mm ... and have a, a, a deeply held desire to want to contribute and help.
Sharee Johnson: Mm.
Sharee Johnson: Um, so this, this naming of things is really important.
Sharee Johnson: And there's a theme here in your description of this, this energy, this flow of energy that when you are speaking for the group or on behalf of the group or naming something, you get some energy from that as well. Mm. What, what do you say, Jasmina, to people who feel like that's risky? Who feel like, "Yes, I can see a problem, but I'm, I, I, it's too risky for me to speak."
Sharee Johnson: Is there anything you'd like to encourage them with from your experience?
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Yeah, absolutely. You know, I was, uh, asked the very same question at a recent, um, medical school talk. You know, the, there are a lot of, um, you know, doctors in training, junior doctors, who [00:49:00] see a problem, um, and, and who see, uh, systemic issues, who want to advocate for not only themselves but their colleagues and their, you know, greater, um, community.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Mm.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: But that fear for the repercussion of their, you know, careers is, is a, is a real concern. And so I always say when you speak from your heart, when you speak from a true desire to improve the system, often people won't judge that as an emotional or, you know, opinionated sort of, communication. It's more that y- they see it as a genuine desire to change and improve things for everybody.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Mm.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: And so I always say, you know- Start with the facts. Always know the facts, and that's why I love research.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Mm-hmm. I love research because it's pure data, and you can't argue against that.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Mm-hmm.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: When you present that in a way, um, that is factual, and you bring your heart in it and your soul, and you want to see improvement for your colleagues or your [00:50:00] patients, then people are naturally drawn to support you a bit more.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Mm-hmm.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: And it will... They will, um, attract the right people to help you in that goal. And I remember when I presented my data, with the parenthood in medicine, I naturally attracted the right people from every part of medicine. You know, we had advocates in, in surgery, in, GP, in physicians, groups who wanted to join and, and improve the system for everybody.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: And, and that really, pushes things along. So I, I don't think, um, we need to go, um, through it in a way that we, um, deflect people or, you know, we wanna draw people in into this journey, and I think it goes back to storytelling. If we can just share, um, the story of why we're doing what we're doing in, in a certain, you know, advocacy field, then people are able to understand that, and are [00:51:00] more likely to join and support you in your goals.
Sharee Johnson: I'm thinking about the women that are around you now. When you see the women that are coming through the training program, what, what are the stories that really warm your heart or, or give you some lift that, you know, yes, we're making progress?
Sharee Johnson: Can you think of a recent, a recent story that's really, um, got at what you've been trying to achieve?
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Yeah. I, um, I received a number of, you know, uh, emails and messages from women from refugee backgrounds-
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Mm-hmm ...
Dr Jasmina Kevric: who, um, are now becoming doctors, you know. And they mentioned that they've seen my journey, uh, and seen what's possible.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: And, you know, it, it allowed them to see themselves in that. Mm-hmm. And when I hear that they're medical students now and I'm able to mentor them through that journey, it's, it [00:52:00] just, just shows me that how much this actually works when you're advocating for a group. That people respond to it and people's lives are changed.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Mm-hmm.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: So I, I feel that, you know, privileged to be in this position. But also we go back to, you know, the women in medicine. You know, when I gave the talk, um, as part of the panel for women in medicine and surgery.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Mm-hmm.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: A number of, of women, you know, wanted to become, um, surgeons.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: You know, the room was full of women. It was, it was great. So I am, I am seeing that shift, that change. Um, I would like to be see it a bit quicker in terms of numbers.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Mm-hmm.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: And certainly more with the part-time training as well. I feel like that's an area that we also need to improve.
Sharee Johnson: What's the benefit for medicine in general when we have more female surgeons?
Sharee Johnson: What's the benefit for, for all of us?
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Well, apart from that, what the data is saying, that the outcomes for patients are better when they're treated by female [00:53:00] surgeons, particularly, female patients. It's really that, um, breadth of experiences that come into the room and the different types of thinking.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Um, and again, back to the diversity of how outcomes are improved when we have multiple, different opinions and different experiences being shared. And so you make better decisions.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Mm.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: And I feel as, as women, we're naturally, you know, we have this empathy that we bring as well. And I truly feel that, having the empathy is one of my strongest skills.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Mm.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: You know, being able to empathize with a patient who's going through breast cancer is, is probably more important than, um, the technical skill that I have. Mm. Because they will never forget that first moment where they were told that they had breast cancer. You know, that will stay with them for the rest of their lives.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: As surgeons in Australia, we're all really very well trained technically. You know, there's a high standard we all have to meet. [00:54:00] But that empathy that you bring with it for the, in that room, and being able to connect with your patient is more important, I feel.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Mm.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: And so I think as, as women, we naturally bring that into the world of medicine.
Sharee Johnson: Mm. Yeah. In fact, we know that this ability to connect with the patient can completely undermine the technical skill that you have if you don't bring that. Mm. And that, and that patients in, in most Western countries, and certainly in Australia, assume the technical skill. That there's not a question about your technical skill.
Sharee Johnson: Mm. The question arises with the communication, the interpersonal skill. Yeah. Y- you're a mum. You've mentioned you being a mum a couple of times. What would you, what, what would you say to the other mums out there who are grappling with, "How the heck am I gonna go back to work, and how am I gonna manage all of this?"
Sharee Johnson: What do you think they need to get around them to help them be able to be a doctor or a surgeon particularly, and a mum?
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Yeah. Yeah. Great question. Um, so when I was a first-time mom, it was the hardest [00:55:00] thing I ever had to do. You know, I was able to go, you know, get through the war, get through surgical training.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Yes.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: But being a new mom is incredibly difficult. And I think it's important just to sit with that-
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Mm-hmm ...
Dr Jasmina Kevric: and just to know that it's a really difficult time. It's a lot of news. Your hormonal surge is just going like crazy. You know, you're experiencing something, you're trying to keep something, another human alive.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Mm-hmm. And just to, to be gentle on yourself. As, as women in medicine, we're, you know, high achieving. We like to get results. We, you know, want to, um, get things done. But sometimes, particularly during this part of our journey in, in life and in our careers, it's important to be very gentle on yourself.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Mm-hmm. Um, and then from then on, get your community. It comes back again to community. You need the people around you to support you. You cannot do this alone. Mm-hmm. And I think it's never meant to be done alone. Mm-hmm. [00:56:00] It's, um, you know, it's... We all know the word, you know, takes a village to raise a child. So I think it's just important to not feel like you're doing this, um, by yourself.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Whether it be friends, family, you know, get people around you. And then to be realistic about careers and progression from then on. We know it is slower to get to, you know, consultancy or, you know, um, certain level or hierarchy in medicine when you become a mom. You know, study after study have shown that because it does take you out and bring something in, so it's, it's a balance, right?
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Mm.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: So, um, yeah, get your community, be gentle on yourself, and find a great mentor. Mm. Someone who possibly has gone through that, understands how to navigate this environment, can advocate for you, and can, uh, really vouch for you-
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Mm ...
Dr Jasmina Kevric: is really important. Um- [00:57:00]
Sharee Johnson: I, I want to challenge the word mentor, Jasmina. I think you're, in some ways we're looking for sponsors.
Sharee Johnson: I was g-
Dr Jasmina Kevric: I was looking for that as well. Yeah. Look, can you... Yeah, absolutely.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Yeah. Get somebody
Dr Jasmina Kevric: to sponsor. You
Sharee Johnson: know, you're talking about having somebody who can champion you, who can advocate for you. Mm. Who can remind people what you're, what you might be dealing with at the moment.
Sharee Johnson: Yes. So
Sharee Johnson: it's, it's more than mentorship, I think.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Absolutely. And, you know, the boys do that so well.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Mm.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: You know, they, they have, they sponsor each other so well. I think we need to be better at doing that for-
Sharee Johnson: I, I love that you said that. Let's put, like, our big black, red line under, under this. Yeah. That, you know, the boys do it well.
Sharee Johnson: We're not, we're not talking about doing something that isn't done in other forums. Mm. I've, I watched some of the men in my life, my brothers-in-law and others, who, uh, hook each other up with other people. Mm. And are saying, "You must meet," and, "Do you know?" And, you know, it's a very natural, normal thing.
Sharee Johnson: Nobody thinks it's manipulative or coercive or anything. It's just the normal, [00:58:00] natural, I want you to be connected to somebody else who would be useful for you to be connected to. And for some reason, I think women often bring a different kind of story to that behavior that perhaps that hasn't served us well.
Sharee Johnson: So- Mm ... thank you for saying that. Yes, the boys do it really well. Let's, let's learn from that. Let's, uh, see if we can be introducing and, and supporting and sponsoring. I love that saying, you know, that, um, uh, we want to surround ourselves with people who speak well of us when we're not in the room. Mm.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Absolutely. That's the sort of people we want in our, in our lives.
Sharee Johnson: Yeah. Excellent. Okay, let's shift a little bit. AI is taking over the world apparently. I rail against that fairly vigorously. Is AI making a difference for you as a surgeon in, in breast cancer? What's the impact of AI in your world of work at the moment?
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Yeah, I've been, uh, reading a lot into AI and its possibilities and capabilities. And at times it's quite scary to think what, um, the world could look like in the next 10, 20 years. But [00:59:00] I think, um, it's very important to also be adaptable and embrace change. So I say AI, if used well, can really enrich our working environment- Mm
Dr Jasmina Kevric: and make our lives a little bit easier. But we have to do it very carefully, um, so it doesn't cause harm to ourselves or our patients. You know, there are ways that it, it is improving our lives at the moment, in our working lives. You know, it's, um, able to, um, uh, create our dictation or, , write our letters and things like that.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: But also that it can synthesize all the knowledge and, , deliver it very quickly. So it does save time for us.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Mm.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: But it has to be done where you're still in control. Human forms are in control. Because I do fear that it could, escape, the reality that we live in, and that perhaps it could, um, not service us as well.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: So it is a fast-evolving field, I feel.
Sharee Johnson: Yeah, totally. Do, do you see [01:00:00] it making a difference in terms of either, i- robotics in the theater or in, in gathering the research in terms of, uh, training surgeons? If we're talking about, for instance, in your specialty, training surgeons in breast surgery, Are, are there things that are happening kind of, you know, from month to month at that kind of rapid pace that is changing how the training's happening?
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Well, there's been, um, a recent, um, you know, article about a real-time robot doing a- assisting for another surgeon. Mm-hmm. So things are rapidly progressing in this area. Absolutely. And if we think about the administrative side of things in healthcare, I think it can improve things enormously. Mm. It can, deliver the patient notes very quickly.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: It can, provide that education for our trainees for better. You know, when you're studying for the exam, you often would have to get a, another surgeon to ask you those in-depth questions. You suddenly have AI asking you, the AI is preparing you for your exams.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Mm. And these are [01:01:00] all, you know, great things. But then, you know, we think about privacy issues, we think about, um, de-skilling issues. You know, are we able to be resourceful ourselves without relying on something else?
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Mm.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: So those are the next challenges certainly that we are, um, embracing hopefully well. Um, but, um, yeah, I think it's a stay tuned kind of moment, Sharee.
Sharee Johnson: Yeah. Nice segue. You have young children, you've got through all the big hurdles, uh, to be, recognized and accredited in all the ways- that you might want to be for now. Is it a bit of consolidation and stabilizing kind of time, or are there next big exciting things on the horizon already for Jasmina?
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Oh, there's lots of new things coming up. And, um, you know, s- I feel like I have to utilize every second of my time right now because it's, you know, I, I, I probably need to put some time to sleep as well, but it's-
Sharee Johnson: Yes, you do. Uh, as a potential patient in the future, all the women want you to sleep well.[01:02:00]
Sharee Johnson: Definitely.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: You tell that to my nine-month-old baby, Sharee. He's not sleeping very well right now, but ...
Sharee Johnson: we might give him a little bit more space before we- ... make too many sleep demands. What about, um, you know, going forward in terms of, the future for, women in medicine and, our refugee populations' opportunity to access medicine?
Sharee Johnson: I think, there is a story of, well-educated people in private schools getting into medicine. That's still, uh, perhaps an issue in terms of the way we select people into medicine. Do you have a, you know, a dream, a hope, a vision, a wish for- Mm ... the next 10 or 20 years of medicine?
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Yes, you're absolutely right.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: You know, the opportunities are shaped by your circumstances often. Um, and I hope that the, you know, the universities and admitting colleges are more open, uh, to embrace that diversity because I do think we make better decisions.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Mm.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: And now being in [01:03:00] a consultant level, hopefully I can, you know, advocate for that in that area and being, you know, on the boards and, um, where the big decision-making is happening and, and try and hopefully bring a different approach, a different way that we can practice medicine in, in Australia.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Mm.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Um, but yeah, there's, you know, a lot of hopes for medicine. You know, more women in surgery, more women, in decision-making. Um, but I think it comes back to we want the women to also participate and be involved and, you know, raise their hand and, you know, and not, not to feel like they don't belong.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: I think that is very important. There's, the system can open up only so much, but if we ... We need the, the ambition there as well, and not to be afraid of that ambition.
Sharee Johnson: Mm. I think that's probably a really good place to finish. Have you got a mantra that you're ... You know, you, you had that mantra early on that we talked about, about it will be okay.
Sharee Johnson: Mm. Um, and you've, you know, given us some beautiful examples of the recalibration skill, if [01:04:00] you like, of, of, um, how else can I touch what's important to me? Mm. Where can I go to re- replenish what I know- Mm ... is true to me and what I need? Um, what's, what's the current mantra? What's the thing that's helping you get through early babyhood life again?
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Yeah. Um, lots of mantras throughout my life as I have experienced different forms of life. Um, but the one that I always go back to is, um, you know, never be afraid to start again.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Mm-hmm.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: That's, you know, always served me well. Mm-hmm. And so no matter what it is, whether it's a day-to-day, if I, you know, feeling like the day-to-day is not going, going according to plan, I, you know, just stop and restart.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: You know, let's reshift the energy and start again. Um, and whether it be, uh, you know, different career goal or different, um, life goal, different circumstances, it's okay to restart. Because if you have that part of [01:05:00] yourself and you, you're true to yourself, you will get where you need to. And probably the things that you thought you needed in your life, it might, you know, reshape itself in different forms.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Mm-hmm. And then when you look back, you're like, "Oh yeah, that was probably not meant for me in the end. This is where I am, which is where I need to be."
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Mm-hmm.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: So never be afraid to restart.
Sharee Johnson: Beautiful. Thank you so much for your time today, Jasmina. It's been just a privilege and a joy. Uh, your ... Everything that you said is heartfelt.
Sharee Johnson: I just can feel it coming down the, um, down the camera. I hope our listeners can feel that too. So thank you for all that you're putting into medicine and to sharing with our community.
Dr Jasmina Kevric: Thank you, Sharee, and thank you for everything that you do as well.
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