Episode 18: DR ANEI OCHAN-THOU
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Speaker: [00:00:00] This conversation with Dr. Anei Ochan-Thou is incredibly inspiring to me. I really do hope that you make the time to listen. Dr. Anei is a young doctor early in his career training to be an anesthetist and gives us just such a brilliant example of people being anywhere in the hierarchy and activating their own agency.
And you know, if you listen to this podcast, that that's my favorite thing, helping people be agentic in their space. Dr. Anei has looked around and said, "There's not very many African Australian doctors here that I can see." And he said a very powerful thing. He said he felt invisible even though he was highly visible because the color of his skin was different to everybody around him.
It's really given me some pause for thought, inquiring into what we're empathic about and what we're blind to, and how we might continue to respond to those gaps that we have in our understanding of, of our colleagues that we might work with every single day. Dr. Anei has looked around [00:01:00] and had this experience, this series of lived experiences, and wondered what he might do to help foster more African Australian people into the health system, particularly into medicine.
He is developing a community, Sudo- Australian MD. There is a blog, a podcast. They had an unscrubbed event in February this year, which you'll hear Dr. Anei is very excited about, where they are bringing doctors with African heritage together to help young people, , particularly high school students, to think about medicine and to have access to talk to doctors who are of African Australian origins, um, to talk about medicine and what that might be like and whether they might get into medicine.
And he's established a scholarship to help those students be able to study and do the GAMSAT successfully. I really love how Anei has been able to think about his individual experience, to wonder if that might be other people's experience, and to [00:02:00] then activate his own agency to try and do something for the greater good.
And he says also very clearly that success is never attributed to one person, that we need other people around us to help us be successful. It's just a delight to have talked to Dr. Anei. He has such wisdom for a young person. I'm kind of in awe, and I hope you really enjoy this conversation today
Sharee Johnson: Today, it's my delight to welcome Dr. Anei Ochan-Thou [00:03:00] to the podcast. Anei is an Anesthetist Registrar and the Founder and CEO of Sudo-AustralianAustralian Australian, MD. An organisation that tells the stories of African- Australian medical doctors and their journeys into medicine. Sudo-AustralianAustralian Australian MD aims to provide empowerment, mentoring, and professional development opportunities for African- Australians in medicine.
One of its prominent initiatives is the Sudo-AustralianAustralian Australian, MD Prospective Medical Student Bursary, which will help students pay for the GAMSAT, as well as provide fully subsidised GAMSAT study resources to assist students in preparing for the GAMSAT. Dr. Anei was the recipient of the 2026 AMARI Gala Spotlight Award for his work with Sudo-AustralianAustralian Australian, MD.
Additionally, in 2024, he was recognized as the Hospital Medical Officer of the Year at Western Health's inaugural Medical Awards in surgery, anesthesia, and endoscopy services. He is passionate about clinical [00:04:00] pedagogy and takes many opportunities to teach intern officers and medical students bedside and procedural teachings and lectures.
He also serves on various medical school interview panels. Outside of work, Anei enjoys spending time with his wonderful wife, umpiring hockey games, and exploring Melbourne's food scene. Anei, welcome. I'm thrilled to have you on the podcast today.
Dr Anei Ochan-Thou: Thank you so much for having me, Sharee. It's great to be here.
Sharee Johnson: It's incredible to have found some time together so quickly. Thank you very much.
Dr Anei Ochan-Thou: No worries.
Sharee Johnson: So Anei, you're working as an anesthesia registrar. Mm-hmm. A pretty full-on job as a junior doctor. I'm really curious to learn from you, how is life as a junior doctor? You've changed hospitals several times, as all junior doctors do, on placement and rotation and so on. Can you tell us a bit about what it's like, approaching a new hospital and resetting again, meeting the new people that you're working with? How's junior doctor life?
Dr Anei Ochan-Thou: Junior doctor life is good from my [00:05:00] perspective. I'm really enjoying my job as an anesthesia registrar. It's something that I've wanted to do since the end of internship.
Um, and I was considering it before then, but it was really solidified during internship. I do work at a different hospital than where I initially started. But I found the transition to be quite seamless, um, in that I had some friends who are also going to, Austin Health. And the department has been so, so supportive.
They understand that starting in a new hospital can be a very uphill battle. Um, getting used to a new system, getting used to, the IT system and new consultants, new registrars, and just how things work and shortcuts to get from A to B around the hospital. So all of those orientation sorts of things that make your life just a little bit easier when you are a junior doctor.
So I found that to be a really good transition. It's a little bit further out to where I currently live. When I was working at Western Health, it used to be a very quick travel to get to, to work. But Austin's a little bit, more time [00:06:00] traveling, which I've tried to find ways of getting around that with, you know, like listening to podcasts on the way to work or using that time to study and to be productive as much as I can.
But overall, um, it's been a really good experience so far as an anesthesia registrar, and I'm looking forward to the next couple of years whilst I'm getting into the trenches of studying for my primary exam. But other than that, yeah, it's been, it's been good.
Sharee Johnson: Mm. It's lovely to hear that because a- as a coach of doctors, people often come when there's a problem, and I don't hear those positive stories as often.
For our, non-doctor listeners, just to clarify, Anei is talking about his training program and his placements for his internship as a, as a learning junior doctor. The system requires doctors to change hospitals, and often doctors are having to apply for their jobs at the end of the year or the end of the next year, and so that results in a, a shift of hospitals.
You've told us a little bit about what's worked well in terms of, you know, if you had some, some of your cohort, your friends already at the hospital. Having a relationship with the consultants that you're working with [00:07:00] helps. What are the things that are challenging? You pointed to IT there. What else can be challenging?
Dr Anei Ochan-Thou: As a junior doctor or as an anesthesia registrar?
Sharee Johnson: Well, either. Yeah, either.
Dr Anei Ochan-Thou: I think as an anesthesia registrar, just the, the step up from being a resident to now being a registrar. You know, when I was a medical student, I saw the registrars as like, "Whoa." You know, these people are so full of knowledge, and they get things done, and they're so productive, and they're so smart and clever.
They just run the ward round, and just a, a wealth of knowledge. And being in that position now, like I'm that registrar now. So I have the responsibility not only to my junior doctors, um, but also to patients and colleagues as well, which we do get a lot of support around, especially if it's your first time being a registrar.
You know, that can be quite anxiety producing, like stepping up from being a resident, where you can report to a registrar and you have that support from your registrar and consultant, to now [00:08:00] being a registrar, where you're working more one-on-one with consultants and you're more involved with patient management, uh, making sure that patients have a seamless transition, in hospital.
So that was a bit of a shock to me when I initially started. But I think- What really helped with that was at the end of my, my resident year last year, I was a critical care HMO. So, a critical care HMO is a junior doctor who, whose rotations are predominantly in critical care areas, so ICU, anesthetics, and ED.
So, I had a critical care anesthesia job last year, which means that I had six months of anesthetics, three months of ICU, and three months of ED throughout the year. My anesthetics time prepared me really well for this anesthesia registrar role in that it was really well-supported, and towards the end of the year, they slowly started to transition you to being almost like a junior registrar.
[00:09:00] So, they had a bit more confidence in you, and they gave you more independence when you're making plans and when you're implementing them, which is very similar to what I'm doing now as an anesthesia registrar. I think that transition was very seamless because of that, because they started to, you know, plant those seeds of being a registrar quite early on.
And with the support of the department, it's been good to be an anesthesia registrar. And I feel like if I didn't have that support and I didn't have the same hospital system, it would've been a harder transition to, to go through. So, that's what made it a little bit easier and some of the challenges that I, I perceived.
Some of the perceptions that I had are definitely real in terms of, you know, like, there's more expected of you as an anesthesia registrar, not just from your colleagues or from your consultants, but also just from patients as well. So, being, being able to know what your limitations are I think is very important.
'Cause, you know, you don't wanna [00:10:00] pretend that you know something, 'cause that can be, uh, quite detrimental to patients' outcomes. So, whenever I feel like I've reached a limitation, um, that's when I reach out to other, other consultants, other registrars, and other, supervisors of training who are always a beacon of support and, and help.
Sharee Johnson: Hmm. You're making a lovely case for the hierarchy of medicine in terms of the evolution of a doctor in terms of, more support or less support, more study. These things exist for a reason even though they cause, , stress for people at different times.
This model of gradually learning and having less and less supervision as time goes on because you have more and more experience has a lot of merit, doesn't it?
Dr Anei Ochan-Thou: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I agree with that.
Sharee Johnson: Did you know you were gonna be a doctor a long time ago, Anei? Tell me about your childhood and how you came to even thinking about being a doctor in the first place.
I think as an immigrant, a lot of our parents want us to either be doctors, lawyers, or engineers. Like, those are the three careers
Very, [00:11:00] very, very common.
Dr Anei Ochan-Thou: That's your limitation. You can't do anything else. If you do anything else, then yeah, it's not good. But I don't think my parents really, um, enforced those three careers.
They just wanted us to grow up and do something that we like and do something, um, that can support our families when we eventually move out of home. I came to medicine... My, my parents were in health fields in Sudan, so they both worked, as nurses, so I always had that at, like, within the background.
Then when I was going through primary school and high school, I was just having fun in primary school. I didn't know what I wanted to do.
Sharee Johnson: Good. I'm glad to hear it.
Dr Anei Ochan-Thou: I was just enjoying art and maths and English and, I wasn't academic in primary school. I just liked going to recess and playing in the sandpit and stuff like that.
And then in high school, I did become a bit more academic, [00:12:00] and through that, I was interested in healthcare. But it wasn't medicine initially. I wanted to do nursing. I wanted to do physio. I wanted to do podiatry. I wanted to do something that was health-affiliated. And it wasn't until I was in year 11 that one of my teachers or mentors at the time, named Lamar, he was an African- American teacher, and he was the first, he was the first black, he was the first black teacher that I've ever had, and it was a very different relationship.
He was really supportive and wanted to see us do well. And I told him about my, my career aspirations and how I wanted to do something in healthcare. And then he said, "You mentioned everything but medicine." And I was like, "Yeah, 'cause medicine's too hard." Mm. And he's like, "Well, like, you should just aim for it.
You know, what's the worst that can happen? You should aim for medicine, and if you don't get in, then you can do something else. But, you know, to count yourself out before you even try, that's not how we run [00:13:00] around here." So I was like, "Okay, cool." Um, so I started to look into medicine as a possible career path, and I did VCE subjects that would align with that. And I got into Bachelor of Science. I did apply for undergraduate medicine, but I didn't get it, which wasn't a career ending because I could do postgraduate medicine and then get in the postgraduate way. That's what I did. So I did a Bachelor of Science at the University of Melbourne, and after three years of that, I got into medicine in Sydney, which was a really huge, huge achievement.
I remember the first, first time I got an email, the acceptance email, I just felt this passing of electricity from top of my head all the way down to my toes. It was just so surreal and it was just sort of this, this fulfillment, this acceptance of, okay, you made it to the next step now, and yeah, I'm gonna be moving to Sydney and studying medicine.
So yeah, it was a very, very huge achievement for me at [00:14:00] the time.
Sharee Johnson: Did you say the teacher's name was Lamar?
Dr Anei Ochan-Thou: Yes.
Sharee Johnson: And so do you bring that lesson from Lamar with you still, that idea that, don't limit myself before I even try?
Dr Anei Ochan-Thou: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. It reminds me of, It reminds me of Cars. Do you know Cars, the movie?
Sharee Johnson: Yeah.
Dr Anei Ochan-Thou: Lightning McQueen. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. There's a part of it where, they said to him, "Oh, you know, like, how did you know that you could do it?" And then he just said, "I don't know. I just, I just didn't think that I couldn't." That was the sort of mindset that I think was very similar to what Lamar was trying to imbue at the time, and something that I've carried since.
Sharee Johnson: You were a Melbourne boy. You'd lived in Melbourne. You'd gone to school, gone to university in Melbourne. Then you moved to Sydney. How was that? Was that a bit of a culture shock? Was that, okay to join the medicine cohort from another state? How was that experience?
Dr Anei Ochan-Thou: Yes, it was a huge shock because it was my first time moving out of home. I'd lived at home with my parents and siblings for a very long time. And not only was it my first time moving out of home, but also [00:15:00] moving interstate as well. And it was challenging. It was challenging because I didn't have that support network. I didn't have huge finances. I was, I'd just finished undergraduate medicine.
I didn't have lots of savings. So I really had to try and make things work at the time. And just finding accommodation was a bit of a challenge as well. The first three months I was staying in an international students' hostel, which was close to uni but just, like, a shoebox pretty much. There wasn't really much there at all.
I did get to meet some international people, so that was good. But yeah, just as a, like, initial struggles was, was a bit of a character-building experience. Then I found some accommodation with a housemate who posted it on, I think it was on, Marketplace or something. And then I, I stayed there ever since I was in Sydney.
And then I moved to Melbourne for my clinical years. So that's when you do your [00:16:00] rotations in hospital, in various departments. Because the first two years were preclinical, and that was based in Sydney. And then with my medical school, we had some campuses and some clinical schools in other states. So I decided to come back to Victoria- Mm-hmm
just to be a little bit closer to home and to what I've known previously as Melbourne. And Melbourne's a better city compared to Sydney, so.
Sharee Johnson: Well, we both share that bias, so we better not go down that rabbit hole. I notice that you use the words character building, and for a psychologist, that's a really interesting phrase.
I just wanna underline that for our listeners because this is about, perspective and how you see things that you didn't describe. You know, that was a really lonely time in Sydney, or that was really, you recognize that as that actually built some strength in you, that being away. And, and it was challenging.
I think saying that it's character building doesn't, dilute the, the reality that there was a challenge there in being away from family and support.
Dr Anei Ochan-Thou: Yeah, it was, it was challenging. Even just being able to just learn everything [00:17:00] about living independently was a challenge. Knowing, you know, how to cook meals and prepare meals, and how to save money at the same time.
And Sydney was expensive, paying for rent. Mm. Like, when I was in medical school, it was really expensive. Can't imagine how much it is now with the cost of living crisis that's, that's happening. So back then, I I was really, really struggling financially. Um, but I did, I did manage to do a bit of tutoring online and put a few coins together to save up- Yeah
for rent and things like that, so.
Sharee Johnson: It's a bit of a hidden cost, isn't it? You, you know, there's so many years of study and, it was your second degree that you were going into. There's a, lot of, hidden cost, for young doctors that you come out of uni still recovering from, from all of that time.
Yeah. As well as, as well as the exams and so on.
Dr Anei Ochan-Thou: Definitely. Definitely. Yeah.
Sharee Johnson: So then in 2021, you established Sudo-AustralianAustralian Australian, MD, and that came in part out of your own experiences of isolation. You know, kind of looking around and not seeing too [00:18:00] many doctors ahead of you that looked like you or sounded like you or had the background that, that you had.
Mm. Can you tell us a bit about, the inspiration to say, "How can I, how can I find some connections or how can I help this be addressed?"
Dr Anei Ochan-Thou: Yeah, for sure. When I was in my third year of medical school, I did Found Sudo-AustralianAustralian Australian, MD. That came because in so many spaces throughout high school, undergrad, post-grad, I felt like I was invisible, but at the same time I was very, very visible as an African Australian person in these spaces.
And that invisibility was really isolating and lonely because I didn't see people that looked like me or came from a similar background to me at all within the field of medicine. In medical school, in my cohort, there were only three African Australians, one man and one woman who... So one came from Kenya and the other one came from [00:19:00] Sudan as well.
But it was only just us three in a cohort of 110. So there weren't that many at all. And not seeing us, I just, I just felt like I couldn't really express myself or be myself in these spaces, and I, I felt really lonely. It was a very isolating experience. Especially because when I came back to Melbourne for the, the clinical years, um, that separated me from those two other African Australians because they were back in Sydney doing their clinical placement.
So I was the only African- Australian person within my cohort in Melbourne at the time. And I, I just, I just felt like I needed to find a way to express myself and to document my experiences because I just felt like this could be a way to help prospective African- Australian medical students to not feel a similar feeling that I had in terms of the isolation.
So I started to document my experiences of being a medical student. I spoke about, um, how medical [00:20:00] school was at the time, what I was intending to do for my specialty, and just different experiences that I encountered, how it was like moving to Sydney, coming back to Melbourne. You know, how my GP placement was, how my surgery placement was.
Just so I could not only to have that documentation, but also for me to talk about these things as well, and to have it on a canvas that was my blog. Through that, I wanted to also talk to other African- Australian medical professionals, and I wanted them to speak about their challenges, their triumphs, and the advice that they had for prospective African- Australian medical students.
It was very interesting. There were so many similarities in our stories and our experiences that I was like, "This is, this is a really good way to document this." That's how we came up with our podcast, Medicine Through Our Eyes.
Sharee Johnson: I love that title. I think this title's, magic.
Dr Anei Ochan-Thou: Well, it's medicine through the eyes of being an African- Australian medical professional is because we oftentimes don't even get the opportunity [00:21:00] to tell our stories.
And if we don't tell our stories, then who's gonna tell it in a way that we actually approve of it? Right. So we have to be the ones to tell our stories and to tell that narrative, and that's what the podcast was, was all about. Then my, my wife was really instrumental in, in all of this because she was like, "Why just stop at blogs and stop with podcasts?"
And we, we applied for a grant with the Scanlon Foundation, and she, was instrumental in applying for that and putting in all the information about Sudo-AustralianAustralianAustralian MD and where we see it going in the future, and we won a $10,000 grant to uplift Sudo-AustralianAustralianAustralian MD as a platform. And through that grant, we established Unscrubbed, which was our inaugural event.
This event was the accumulation of years and years of talking to African- Australian medical professionals and wanting that to be a live event. So we had five [00:22:00] different African- Australian medical professionals and a medical student. We had an obstetrics and gynecology consultant and registrar, an ED registrar, and a geriatrician, as well as myself, just talking about our experiences of going through medicine, what we face, some of the challenges, and what advice we have for prospective African- Australian medical students.
We tried to see if something like this had been done previously, but it, it wasn't. So this was the first time, it was a historic event where a group of African- Australians came together in a space. Initially, we thought that maybe 40 people would come to our event, but we had more than 120 people attend.
Sharee Johnson: Wow. Amazing.
Dr Anei Ochan-Thou: And I think that just shows the necessity of something like this, you know? To create a space where people can come together from an African- Australian background in the medical profession and to share their experiences. When you looked around at our event, like, you could see everyone was so tuned in, everyone was so focused and was [00:23:00] approving of what people were saying, because they could relate to that.
They could see themselves in the stories and experiences that people were talking about. We had more than 20 African Australian medical professionals who were doctors in the room itself, and I've never seen that many African Australian doctors, like let alone two, in the same room. So it was very, very historic, our Unscrubbed event.
Afterwards, we received so much feedback that this is something that needs to happen again. This is something that needs to be consistent, to have our own space where we can just be ourselves and share our experiences, was really, really formidable. And there are some high school students and undergraduate students who- For them, it reinforced to them that they wanted to still continue on this path of medicine, and that's why we do this.
We, we want to see more African- Australians in the medical profession because if you just look at it from Australia as a, as a view, we, we have a third [00:24:00] of our Australian population who are either born overseas or their parents are born overseas. So it's very, very multicultural, and medicine as a specialty should also reflect that as well.
We need to have a profession that reflects the population of people that we treat. And to have African- Australians in medicine, I think would be more, more of them in medicine, I think that would be such an amazing thing not only for our patients, but also for the individuals themselves as well. And in addition to that, it was a ticketed event, and all of the proceeds from our Unscrubbed event are going towards Sudo-AustralianAustralianAustralian MD prospective medical student bursary, where we're giving away two bursaries of $1,000 each to support prospective African Australian medical students get into medicine.
So to pay for the GAMSAT and to also share GAMSAT resources with them. We [00:25:00] partnered with an organisation called No BS GAMSAT. It's No Bullshit GAMSAT. Um, they're an organisation that focuses on providing GAMSAT resources and content to people sitting the GAMSAT, but they do it in a very different way.
They're not like the major GAMSAT companies that charge thousands and thousands of dollars. So No Bullshit GAMSAT, it's run by medical students in WA who realize that people can sit the GAMSAT, but they just need a bit of support, a bit of guidance. And so we partnered with her because she's also very much into providing opportunities for people who come from disadvantaged backgrounds.
So she donates, like, 10 to 20% of her earnings to charity, and she also donates at least four resources for free to, students for every 100 books that she sells. So all that aligns with what Sudo-Australian MD was about. And so we also wanna help prospective African- Australian students in this way, and we'll also give up to [00:26:00] three resources, um, to people who apply for the bursary as well.
And that's our way of giving back, too.
Sharee Johnson: So we'll put, we'll put all of the details for people, in the show notes so you can see how to, how to access, Sudo-Australian MD and apply for the bursary and all of those kind of things. , And No BS GAMSAT, we'll put that in the show notes too. I think there's so much in what you've just said, Anei.
The concept of feeling incredibly invisible, but also feeling so visible at the same time. There's a lot of complex psychology to hold in that, in that situation. I think there's a lot of things that we just don't see. All of us are full of assumptions and blind spots. We don't see things. And one of the things that you've been talking about is, the microaggressions that happen on a day-to-day basis when, you are somehow different in the environment that you're, that you're operating in. Can you tell us a little bit about what you think it's important that we attune to collectively?
What are the things we should be understanding and thinking about when it comes to welcoming and being [00:27:00] inclusive of everybody in medicine?
Dr Anei Ochan-Thou: Yeah, I think, I think what I can impart is that even though we look different and come from a different background, we just wanna belong. We just wanna feel like we're in a space that accepts our individuality and accepts all of the things that come with us as well.
So our unique experiences, our unique, uh, perspectives that we bring. And I think that just adds to the overall collective experience where to create an environment that is accepting of diversity, inclusion, and equity, it only strengthens us. I don't think that it necessarily weakens us at all. So I think that's, that's what I'd wanna impart.
Sharee Johnson: Mm. Yeah. I agree. I, I wanna just read some things. So I was looking at the, medical trainee survey that happens every year, and so I had a look in preparation for our conversation about what happened in 2025. So the, the great thing about the medical, um, trainee survey is that the numbers of [00:28:00] people that are responding and participating are increasing as a general rule, so we have a more comprehensive view of what's happening for trainees.
But 46% of trainees answering the survey said that they experienced or witnessed unacceptable behavior from colleagues, patients, or patient families. I think that's pretty extraordinary that nearly 50% of trainees are having that experience. Um, so that's a concern. The rate of bullying, discrimination, and harassment, including sexual harassment and racism, is unchanged since the 2020 survey.
So even though we're talking about it a lot and we're trying to track it, we're not making a lot of significant progress, so that's really concerning. And past surveys were saying that a lot of this bullying and harassment, discrimination was happening from senior medical officers, and that has decreased by about 10%. So that's good, but at the same time, it's gone up from patients and patient families. So, um, doctors are still experiencing a lot of, of these problematic, unacceptable, behaviors.
You might not want to talk personally, but do you have a sense [00:29:00] of this, um, I guess this broad experience in junior doctoring, of discrimination, harassment, racism? Does that fit with the people that you know's, experience?
Dr Anei Ochan-Thou: Yeah. Yeah. So I've, I have experienced microaggressions and racism as a medical student and also as a junior doctor. Mm. And a lot of my fellow African- Australians have also experienced that as well, and that was shared at our Unscrubbed event. I personally haven't experienced it from seniors and from colleagues, which has been really good. I've, I've only been supported by them. So that's just my own personal experience, but I have experienced it from sort of some patients and patients' families.
Um, even when I got onto anesthetics training, there was so much, I thought there was s- so much questioning about the validity of me getting onto training. And what I mean by that is when, when I told people that I got onto anesthetics, there was this one particular person [00:30:00] who I won't name, who just asked so many questions about me getting onto anesthetics training, and not from the perspective of them wanting to know a little bit more about it, but just to sort of find holes in that story.
So like, "Look, so like, like you got into anesthetics?" Mm. Like, "Yeah, I did. I did. Yeah, actually." Like, "How did that happen?" I was like, "You know, I did what I needed to do, and I got on. It was competitive, but, you know, I got on." They're like, "Oh, okay." And, um, you know, like, "Where'd you go to school?" You know, and they're just probing questions like that, and they were asking, "Oh, okay, okay.
And, um, like, were your parents doctors?" Like, just all of these questions surrounding how I managed to get into such a competitive, specialty. And I think, I think that- My other colleagues didn't experience that at all. My white Anglo-Saxon Australian colleagues didn't get this deluge of questions about how they got onto [00:31:00] anesthetics training.
When they told their experiences, it was just like, "Oh, cool. Nice, you got on. That's fantastic. Congratulations." But with me, there was sort of this added layer of, how can this person get onto anesthetics training? Either, you know, something happened where this was a possibility, maybe they got it wrong, or maybe it was like DEI or something like that.
So yeah, I, I just, I just felt that entire experience just put me, put me off, and it was a very sour taste in my mouth because, you know, I, I did work for this. I, I worked really, really hard to get in this position where I was able to be competitive and to apply to a competitive training program. And I attribute all of that success to, um, all of the work, the hard work that I put in and the support that I have from people around me, like my wife, Prisca.
So for them to just sort of try and attenuate and dilute that entire experience, it was so... Like, it [00:32:00] wasn't a reflection of me, it was a reflection of them. Yeah. Because the, the reflection for me is that I put in the work, I got support from my department, and I was put in a position where I could be competitive.
But for them to, to think that, to try and attenuate that experience, I think that was more a reflection of them. So that's an example more recently of, a microaggression or racism in a way. Yeah.
Sharee Johnson: It's energy that you need to expend though, isn't it, to maintain your own regulation and to notice to yourself that, to, to have that management of, "Well, that's saying more about them than it is about me."
And that's a, that's a conscious choice that requires some of your energy.
Dr Anei Ochan-Thou: It's tiring.
Sharee Johnson: Yeah. It's tiring. Exactly. And so, you know, there's enough things to make you tired in medicine, uh, without needing to have to manage those interpersonal interactions as well.
I think, there's a lot of room for work there. The, medical training survey's also pointing to even worse data for our Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, there's a long way for us to go there. You've made a conscious [00:33:00] decision to speak about these things, to, point them out, which also takes energy to keep being asked about them and to talk about them. My understanding is that you've done that for the greater good, that that's about a pathway for the people coming behind you. That's a strong value of service it seems, or there's, there's something else that's operational there. How do you describe what's happening in you when you're making those decisions?
Dr Anei Ochan-Thou: I've, I've always been a proponent of servant leadership. Mm. Um, what I mean by that is when you're leading from your position, leading in a way that services other people around you, your colleagues, your, your peers, and your family members, and that, that's been imbued in me since I was in high school. I used to read Nelson Mandela's autobiography, so The Long Walk to Freedom, and I, I read it twice and it's a big book. It's thick.
Sharee Johnson: It is a big book.
Dr Anei Ochan-Thou: It's, it's really, really thick, and I read it twice. And throughout just learning more about Nelson [00:34:00] Mandela's life, I, I realized that He was a proponent of servant leadership and how he managed to not only serve his country at the time when it was needed, but also his, his family as well.
That's something that I've, I've taken from my experiences of reading about Nelson Mandela and also my leadership positions in high school. And it's something that I brought into Sudo- Australian MD as well. And it comes from a place of I was given the opportunities throughout my life to get into medicine and to get in these positions, and I walked through the doors of opportunity. And I think it's important to leave that door ajar for other people to also walk through as well. And that's what servant leadership is about.
Sharee Johnson: That's a beautiful metaphor.
Dr Anei Ochan-Thou: Yeah. I was, I was talking to someone the other day who said that, it's like when you take the elevator up, make sure you also press it to go down so other people can come up with you as well. So that's also what I try to, to imbue through everything.
Sharee Johnson: You've been, operating [00:35:00] Sudo- Australian MD since 2021. It's grown. It was a blog at the beginning, and now it's grown into all these other great things. ... Is there some momentum? Is there some change happening?
Dr Anei Ochan-Thou: Definitely. Definitely. We, we got so much momentum following our Unscrubbed event. Mm. I think people were like, "Okay, so this is what it's about." Like, they were just so inspired by that. And then now with our bursary and trying to help prospective African- Australian medical students, we are planting the seeds to, to help our community out, and I think that's what Sudo- Australian MD was, was all about from the very, very beginning.
And now to see it in fruition and in the way that it has, uh, changed, it's, it's been incredible. It's been good.
Sharee Johnson: We certainly find with our in-person events that there's a big uptick in, in momentum when we're physically together. So I can kind of hear the audience already saying, "So is there another one?" So is there another event coming? What's the plan?
Dr Anei Ochan-Thou: Uh, to be confirmed. [00:36:00] We are, we are-
Sharee Johnson: When was the Unscrubbed event? Last year or this year?
Dr Anei Ochan-Thou: Oh, it's in February 2026, so-
Sharee Johnson: Great. That only just happened.
Dr Anei Ochan-Thou: Yeah, yeah. We, we have a few workshops and a few collaborations coming up. Uh, so that should be something to look out for.
Sharee Johnson: Okay. So people should keep their eye on the Sudo- Australian MD website.
Dr Anei Ochan-Thou: Definitely.
Sharee Johnson: Yeah. Okay, great.
Have there been things in your journey, Anei, that have been, unexpected in medicine above what we've already talked about? Have there been things that have come along that you didn't expect that have been surprises, good or bad, in your medical journey?
Dr Anei Ochan-Thou: I think for me, just coming to the realization that through medicine, even though you're the one who's going through it, your family is also going through it as well, and your partner's going through it too. I think that sometimes get, like gets lost in the stories that people tell about how they made it from being an intern all the way to a consultant.
Because your family and your support system is so, so instrumental in that. [00:37:00] I have a very lovely wife, Prisca, and she's been so supportive for this entire journey, and without her, I don't think I would even be in this position. And even though I'm the one that goes into work and does the hours and does a bit of overtime and everything, she's the one that experiences, tired Anei at the end of a shift or, Anei who has to study for exams, so not as much time gets spent between us and things like that.
So they're just as much a part of your journey as you are part of your journey, and I didn't really realize that that could be so instrumental in you actually making it or not, and having that support is, is really, really important because, it's very hard to do this alone. I think success isn't just attributable to one, one person.
I think it's linked to the people around you who have managed to support you and uplift you during times where you feel like you are in deep trouble. So that's one thing I came to realize.
Sharee Johnson: Yeah, certainly I've experienced lots of conversations [00:38:00] with doctors where they feel like there's absolutely nothing in the tank. And, one thing that's surprised me a bit when I started coaching doctors, which was 13 years ago, how often people didn't have friends who were outside of medicine, that medicine was taking so much of their time in terms of being at uni and then studying for exams and being in the hospital that there wasn't a lot of room for non-medical friends.
Have you managed to maintain some of your, high school friendships or your first degree friendships? Have they carried on or have they been, unintended losses from, from medicine?
Dr Anei Ochan-Thou: I still, I still catch up with people from high school every now and then, which is good to get non-medical, friends and perspectives, and that's something that I do, I do appreciate.
And it is good to have, like, a partner or a friend who is non-medical, 'cause I think having to come back from work and then maybe talk about medicine again, and then even just watching medical, documentaries and [00:39:00] series, that gets exhausting 'cause then it kind of becomes like, "Oh, like, I should've done that at work" or, "Oh, like, is that how they really do it?" So it just becomes like this whole sort of- anxiety-producing thing. Yeah. I don't really watch that many medical shows because of that. 'Cause I'm just like, ugh, I just did a 12-hour shift, and then coming home and then seeing more medicine. I just need a break from it all.
Sharee Johnson: That, that's very familiar to me too. Lots of doctors saying things like The Pitt or, This Is Going To Hurt from Adam Kay in the UK. You know, that they're too close to the bone. They're too much about what you're doing during your work. And, it's not escapism for, for people who are actually doing the work.
You have an interest in critical care medicine in particular. That, that seems like that was obvious to you, that there wasn't a dilemma. Did you think about going into other specialties that weren't, about critical care?
Dr Anei Ochan-Thou: I did. I did think about doing BPT, which is basic physicians training.
Mm. Like a neurologist. I thought it was pretty cool, at the time when I was in medical school. But I got drawn to anesthetics because I felt like it was [00:40:00] a way to combine not only procedural aspects of medicine, which is what I always imagined medicine or a doctor to, to be. But also, you have to be abreast of so many different specialties, as well as physiologies and pharmacologies of those specialties.
So, you know, it's so diverse. One morning you could be doing a urology list and then the afternoon you're doing orthopedics. So being able to just change that mindset from one thing to another, I think is really interesting, and it keeps it, fascinating for me. So being able to be abreast of everything, um, and help patients through their perioperative journey.
So before surgery, during surgery, and after surgery, whilst also implementing the procedural aspects to keep them safe. I think it was a fantastic combination of all of those things, and that's why I'm doing it at the moment. And it's been good. Yeah, I think I- Yeah ... chose the right specialty, for sure. Yeah.
Sharee Johnson: I should've said at the beginning, congratulations on, on getting as far as you've got.
Dr Anei Ochan-Thou: Oh, thanks. Thank you.
Sharee Johnson: And what have you learnt about the patients or from the patients? Has [00:41:00] there been any surprises or things there that you hadn't anticipated?
Dr Anei Ochan-Thou: Some patients are really good at hiding their anxiety and how stressed they are before surgery, we can all tell that there is some anxiety there. But going through surgery and going under is very, very, um, anxiety producing. You know, you are relenting or giving up control to someone else who you just met. And they're the ones who are going to be making sure that you make it safely and comfortably through surgery. And oftentimes for people who've always been accustomed to having so much control over their lives and then having to give that up for an X amount of hours, it can be quite confronting. So being able to assuage that anxiety pre-op and explain to patients that we are on your side and our job is to make sure that you are safe and that you are comfortable, it's been so, it's been so, um, satisfying, [00:42:00] and it makes the job so much better when patients are like, "Okay, I can, I can trust you in doing this."
And to, to see patients from going from being super, super anxious to being a lot more comfortable, and their breathing and their whole demeanor changes just beforehand, just with the words and the way that you, um, express yourself and you display emotional intelligence, I think that's, that's a part of the job that they don't really teach in medical school, and that just comes through experience, and it's something that I've definitely enjoyed, as part of anesthetics.
Sharee Johnson: I love hearing you say all of that because a, a lot of the anesthetists that I've worked with say that, "Well, my job's procedural." And they like that it's procedural. It's not so focused on... Or they don't think it's focused on the, the interpersonal relationship. But actually, as you're describing it, they're discovering that, that the person goes into surgery and the surgeon is calmer and the theater is calmer when the anesthetist has done that really good job at the beginning of connecting [00:43:00] with the patient.
As, as you rightly say, a basic psychological need is to feel autonomous as an adult. And so to be asked to give over our, bodily functions to somebody else requires a lot of trust and, and it's a really vulnerable feeling. You're reminding me, I had a colonoscopy about, three years ago, and the people that looked after me were fabulous.
They were all fabulous. But there were nine people in the theater. And as a person who's not in theater hardly ever, that in itself is confronting. Who are all of these people? What are they all doing here? Is something gonna go really wrong, Is that why there's so many people? And actually, a large number of those people were learners, were medical students and so on. But as a lay person coming into that situation, you don't have those bearings. As you're describing, the anesthetist at the beginning kind of sets the tone for that process.
Dr Anei Ochan-Thou: Exactly. Exactly. It's an honor. It's an honor to be training as an anesthetist. And yeah, I hope to continue helping as many people
Sharee Johnson: [00:44:00] As a, non-doctor, we don't realize how many different roles doctors have. We think doctors meet patients and do doctoring, medicine. But you also have roles as a teacher, and you're on interview panels thinking about who can be the next doctors coming behind you, participating in that conversation. Can you tell us a little bit about what those roles add to your job of being a doctor?
Dr Anei Ochan-Thou: They add to me being more multifaceted in what I do. I've always enjoyed teaching. I used to be a tutor, I used to teach year 9, year 10, year 11 maths. And I really enjoyed taking someone through something that they're learning and then getting that aha moment at the end where they're like, "Oh, okay, this actually makes sense."
And you can sort of see, like, the cog wheels in their mind just working a bit more. And I used to be a learning support officer in a high school where I just helped students in various year levels, um, who were doing really, really well in their class, and students who were, um, who were struggling a little bit, just so I [00:45:00] can get them through whatever they were learning.
And that planted the seeds of me really enjoying teaching and seeing that as a part of me, and I wanted to continue that throughout medicine. And I got into some teaching roles where I taught anatomy to medical students at one point, I also taught more bedside clinical skills to some medical students when I was a HMO. So, that was my way of not only doing medicine, but also incorporating so many aspects of what I used to do as a tutor into medicine, and something that I hope to, to continue doing, um, in the future as well.
Being on the interview panel, that came from wanting to have, I think, just a difference in the panel members when they come to interviewing medical students. I think that makes a difference when someone is able to see someone that looks like them who's on the interview panel. I think that, um, can address some biases that sometimes [00:46:00] occur. And so that's- Yeah ... that's how I, I, I got into that because I realized that, okay, it's important to advocate for diversity, inclusion, and equity, but what does it actually look like? And so for me, that looked like being in these spaces where I, I can be at the forefront of diversity, inclusion, and equity when it comes to people who are applying for something like, like medicine.
Sharee Johnson: It's really active visibility, isn't it? Even though you've had those feelings of, "Am I, am I visible?" It's like I'm leaning into that. I'm gonna make sure. Mm.
Dr Anei Ochan-Thou: Exactly. Yeah.
Sharee Johnson: Yeah. I wonder if there's anything you want to say to the, leaders, or the senior medical doctors about what you hope to impart to them or what you invite them to pay attention to?
Dr Anei Ochan-Thou: That's a really good question, Sharee.
Um, it's nothing too complicated that I wanna impart onto them. Just something very simple to, to realize that diversity and inclusion and e- and equity can come in so many different forms and [00:47:00] so many different experiences. Being able to be an ally to people who oftentimes are marginalized in society in whatever way is really, really important, because they feel safe, they feel vulnerable, and they can open up to you and add so many experiences and so many perspectives that will be beneficial to your organisation and your department and whatever you're leading.
So that's what I would say. And, a really good example of this was at our Unscrubbed event. I keep talking about Unscrubbed, but it's a really-
Sharee Johnson: I can see the energy and the enthusiasm about it. But- I, I wanna come. I, obviously, I'm not the right demographic, but sounds fabulous.
Dr Anei Ochan-Thou: You can come to Unscrubbed. There was a medical student who spoke about how she, she found an ally being a medical student through her professor, and she was in a consult with her professor, who was a surgeon, [00:48:00] and- The professor was introducing this medical student and said, "You know, this is X. She's a medical student. Um, she's from this medical school."
And the patient was like, "Oh, do you have another name that we can go by?" Because her name was quite difficult to pronounce. And then the professor said, "Um, no, her name is this. It's not too hard to pronounce compared to David or John or Thomas, so she should pronounce it the way that it's meant to be pronounced."
And for that medical student, she felt so, so safe and so accepted in that position. Because oftentimes people would try to shorten her name or to Anglicize it so it can be a lot easier to pronounce. But when the professor stood in that moment and said, "No, we're not gonna do that. We are going to say her name the way that it's meant to be said to respect where she comes from and her culture and her experience, and we're not going to say it's any harder than Australian names."
So for her, that was a really monumental experience, and she realized in that, that experience that she had an ally in [00:49:00] that professor. So that's what I mean by showing that you're an ally when it comes to people who come from different backgrounds and different experiences. That's one way that you can show that you're on their side as well.
Sharee Johnson: It's a bit like when we were talking about the microaggressions. Many of these small acts where you know that people have your back or that they're standing with you or that they, want you to, to be seen and valued for who you are. Yeah. They, they add up, don't they?
Dr Anei Ochan-Thou: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. So that's what I would impart to, to those in positions of leadership.
Sharee Johnson: Mm. We're coming to the end of our conversation, but I'm wondering what you've learned or what you're practicing for your own wellbeing as you go along. Medicine's a, a long time training, and then it's a long time, hopefully, serving as a doctor in your specialty.
How do you take care of yourself so that you've got a longevity or a, or sustainability in medicine?
Dr Anei Ochan-Thou: When I was- an intern, the very first day of internship at Western Health, we got given this book called The [00:50:00] Thriving Doctor by Sharee Johnson, who happens to be here. And, um, Abi Arul, who was the chief medical officer at Western Health, she gave us this book, and she signed it, and she said, "2023 is going to be your year. Welcome to Western Health." And she signed it. And she was talking about this book, Sharee, about how it has been so influential, um, and helped so many junior medical doctors throughout their journey. And I've read this book twice already, and it's been really, really useful to try and build the foundation of my career and, to build that around who I am as a person.
And one thing that I got from it is, you know, you are a doctor, but you're also a son, husband, friend. You know, there are so many other aspects of us that make us who we are, and doctoring is just one of those things. So being able to live your life with those other things that make you who you are is also important as well.
So yeah, that's what [00:51:00] I'll continue doing, continue being me, but also continue being the, the husband, the, the son, um, the friend that I am. And being able to lean onto supports is so important, and, I'm so grateful for people in my life who've supported me along the way, like Lamar and my wonderful wife, Prisca, who's been there for me from the very get-go.
So yeah, that's how I plan on continuing to be that person.
Sharee Johnson: Well, Anei you've given me quite a surprise waving my book around there. So thank you for that. Um, and I do wanna really iterate what you're saying. People are like diamonds. We have so many facets and so many different, uh, ways to show who we are and to connect with each other.
We get kind of boxed in sometimes to one role or one, identity, and that's limiting for us. And you've given us a beautiful example of how you can take your background, your heritage, your family, your experience of studying science before you came into medicine and to say, "How else can I express myself in [00:52:00] becoming the CEO and the founder of Sudo- Australian MD?"
So I think that's a, a beautiful example of, that, that I'm more than one role and it's really down to our creativity. I'm kind of learning that, some people, some science says that creativity should be a foundation as much as movement, sleep, and nutrition. So, you've given us a lovely example of that too, that you have this creative power.
And one of the things that happens when we're under pressure, which many junior doctors or, or many doctors in general are under, is that we lose our creativity. If there's not enough space, we can't generate things. We get into kind of survivorship mode. I think this has been a really hopeful conversation.
You've talked about seamless transitions between hospitals and, support from the hierarchy from your consultants. So I'm really grateful for your optimistic story and your demonstration of, of how you can be, you know, positively creating and connecting in the world.
Have you got a kind of mantra or some little gem that you want to share as we wrap up our conversation [00:53:00] that helps you steady your, your course when things are a bit hot?
Dr Anei Ochan-Thou: Oh, thanks, Sharee, for saying all of that. Yeah, it's been, it's been a really good episode and just talking to you has been a reflection on so many aspects of my life, which I appreciate. Mantra or something that I go by. Um, I think just take every day as it comes really. You know- Yeah ... being present is- Yeah important. You know, learn from your past, but also be compassionate to yourself as well. We're all learning. We're all experiencing life together. And why not do it in a way where it's, it's filled with compassion and civility as opposed to making it harder for ourselves. So yeah, that's, that's something that I would impart.
Sharee Johnson: Yeah. Hear, hear. I think that's a lovely place for us to finish. Thank you so much for your time and your, your wisdom today.
Dr Anei Ochan-Thou: Thanks for having me, Sharee. I really appreciate the time you've taken. Thanks.
[00:54:00]
