Sharee Johnson [00:00:05]:
Hello and welcome to Recalibrating with me, Cherie Johnson, where you'll hear healthcare professionals and others sharing their stories of recalibrating life when the unexpected happened. As a psychologist and a coach, I've been listening deeply to people's stories for 35 years, and I've come to believe two things about people. The first is, having witnessed so many incredible stories of hope, adaptability, and human capacity, I truly believe that we are all capable of so much more than we really think we are. In times of challenge, humans have demonstrated that over and over again. Here on the Recalibrating Podcast, you'll get to hear amazing stories of healthcare professionals and others pivoting, overcoming, and recalibrating their lives. The second thing that the research and my experiences as a psychologist have shown me is that humans need each other. We need people. When we have support around us, when we tell each other our stories, when we connect through the reality of living our lives, we do so much better than when we pull back and hide what's really going on for us. Together on this podcast, we're going to unearth and amplify what helps us as humans, individually and collectively, to recalibrate in ways that help us change, grow, adapt, even surprise ourselves when life throws us a curveball. This podcast offers you the chance to be inspired, and encouraged to meet the unexpected in your life with grace, skills, and a belief in your own human capacity. Life is full of opportunities to recalibrate with agency, the right mindset, the right resources, and the right community. Today's storyteller is Dr. Andrew Green. Andrew works as an anesthetist on the Mornington Peninsula and in Gippsland, both in Victoria in Australia. Andrew started his medical career as a general practitioner and a GP anaesthetist, but went on to train as a specialist anaesthetist. He particularly enjoys looking after children and their families at the challenging time of surgery. People who work with Andrew say that he's fun and that humour is usual. Andrew enjoys co-facilitating and being part of our Recalibrate community. It's an absolute honour today to welcome Dr. Andrew Green to Recalibrating with Cherie Johnson. Hi Andrew, how you going?
Dr. Andrew Green [00:02:49]:
I'm really well, Cherie. Um, how are you?
Sharee Johnson [00:02:52]:
I'm good, thank you. I'm very pleased to see you and to have this chance to talk with you about your journey and the opportunities you've had in your life to recalibrate. So welcome to Recalibrating with me. Uh, you've had a change of specialty, and I think that's very interesting for our audience to hear about that journey. So let's start there. You work as an anaesthetist now, you supervise and, uh, and guide out some of our trainee anaesthetists, but you haven't always been an anaesthetist. So would you tell us a little bit about that story?
Dr. Andrew Green [00:03:27]:
Um, yeah, I, I started as a general practitioner in my medical career, and I think that was primarily because it was hard for me to choose a specialty. I felt like, you know, I could do a bit of everything. and working in a rural setting, felt that airway skills and anesthetics would be a useful sideline. And I trained as a GP anesthetist fairly early in my general practice career and quickly decided that, you know, there was one part of my work that I really liked and the other part that I found really hard going. And so moved on to retrain as a specialist anaesthetist, um, which has been a good decision. And I kind of feel like the change was probably a symptom of having, you know, a need to change rather than, you know, the movement into a better place, so to speak. Um, so I can explain a little bit more about what I think that means. And, you know, I just found general practice really hardgoing. For a whole lot of reasons. High turnover, constant reconnecting with a new patient every several minutes was so taxing. And I've got great respect for people who can do it, but I struggled. And anesthetics is kind of polar opposites from that. One patient at a time, a small team around us, and, you know, very clear goal. And I think in reality, looking back, the general practice was a burnout for me very early in my career, and the change, you know, was needed. But really it took me further away from the opportunity to connect with patients.
Sharee Johnson [00:05:21]:
Okay, well, let's come back around to that in a minute. It sounds like it was valuable though to be able to try out, you know, you had as a procedural, as a GP who was doing some anesthetics, you had a chance to try that out. Did that help? That sounds like that helped the decision.
Dr. Andrew Green [00:05:36]:
Yeah, as I say, I knew, I knew which part of my week I really enjoyed, which, you know, I thrived in.
Sharee Johnson [00:05:43]:
And was it difficult to get onto the training program? How was that experience? I think that's changed over the last couple of decades a bit.
Dr. Andrew Green [00:05:50]:
I think it's even harder now. The change for me was probably— I was lucky there were— I had some, I had some connections, some contacts that really helped. And the rules have changed a bit since then as well. I've, I have a number of people that I've almost really mentored through that very similar process, and they've had it a lot harder than I've, than I did. So I think it's, you know, it's become a lot harder to get onto specialty training programs across the board.
Sharee Johnson [00:06:23]:
It's certainly one of the things that brings younger doctors to coaching, this, this struggle to determine which specialty to apply for, and then once they decide, the actual intensity of trying to get onto the program and, you know, having to try multiple years in a row sometimes. We maybe won't go up that road. We need to get somebody from one of the colleges in to help us understand that a bit more. As you rightly say, being a GP and being an anaesthetist are very different day-to-day jobs. Um, did you have to make some kind of mindset shift, or what was the recalibration that had to happen inside of you in terms of your identity? You know, still a doctor but being quite a different, uh, set of tasks that you were, you were now doing.
Dr. Andrew Green [00:07:13]:
Um, it was a little bit of an effort to put down some, because, you know, I had passed through the, the general practice training program. Um, and two, it felt like abandoning, um, you know, a specialty where doctors were needed. If general practice is a specialty, um, I'm sure general practitioners—
Sharee Johnson [00:07:33]:
I think we certainly say it's a specialty these days.
Dr. Andrew Green [00:07:36]:
Um, you know, to— yeah, so to, to put that down and abandon, you know, a career that, you know, was in need of practitioners was something that took a little bit of effort and was, you know, there was a bit of sadness around that and perhaps some guilt. Um, and in reality, while I was doing both, um, yeah, the part of my week that, that felt, um, more uplifting, um, you know, just to sort of lean into that wasn't as hard as, uh, as it might have been.
Sharee Johnson [00:08:14]:
So, so, Andrew, can we come back to that shift of now you're working with a small team, you're seeing one patient at a time? Many of the anaesthetists that I've worked with describe, you know, the first thing they say is, I'm a proceduralist and I like checklists, I like working through a procedure. And so can you talk a little bit about maybe the ups and the downsides of that? And, and you made a comment that you perhaps moved away in that shift from the connecting with people. Maybe say some more about that to us.
Dr. Andrew Green [00:08:48]:
Okay, I kind of agree. I think anaesthetics is very much— it's very task-focused. You know, we're lucky in that we get a— I think we're lucky we get handed a job that's very well defined, and we very much know by the end of our interaction with a patient or even a day's work whether or not we've achieved what we set out to do. And, you know, I think it's different to general practice. It's much more nebulous. And, you know, we go home at the end of the day. It's easier to put things down. I believe it's easier to put things down and tie it up neatly and be done. And there is a small team of people around us that I can get to know fairly well. The turnover of patients is less. And the other thing about our interaction with patients, and this is one of the wake-up moments for me really, was coming to realize that there was, it's almost like there's a watershed moment in the giving of an anesthetic in my mind that, you know, we can talk to the patient and do our pre-anesthetic assessment and everything, but it's once we actually start the process of, you know, it's almost like putting the intravenous cannula and start giving drugs and the patient now becomes almost a part of the environment around us. And somehow, um, sounds, sounds difficult, but this is a descriptive term, becomes more, more like an item rather than a person, especially once they become asleep. And I, I had that conversation with the surgeon I'd worked with a lot one day, um, and pointed out the, the way it sort of almost depersonalizes the patient. And he made the observation that it may be that it's at least in part necessary to allow us to do the quite inhumane things that might be seen that we do to people's bodies. And, you know, that if anything, that, that, you know, realizing that was an issue, or it became a, you know, thing I became very consciously aware of. And it led to me, um, it was probably one of the moments that I, I sort of thought, wow, there's, you know, this, there could be a different way of doing things here. And it was one of the, I think, one of the, one of the moments that led to me starting to think what would that be? How would it be different?
Sharee Johnson [00:11:14]:
How long ago do you think that was?
Dr. Andrew Green [00:11:17]:
It was more than several years. Yeah.
Sharee Johnson [00:11:19]:
Um, well, how, how far was it into your anesthetic career, I guess?
Dr. Andrew Green [00:11:26]:
Um, yeah, a good few years into being a full-time anesthetist. Um, you know, it was almost like when I went into anesthetics, it was a relief to not need to connect with people every several minutes. And then in realizing, you know, what that meant in terms of my opportunity to connect, connect with people, was like, again, like a, an eye-opening moment. So, you know, it was an opportunity, I think, to, you know, to start thinking how or what would I do differently.
Sharee Johnson [00:12:04]:
Now I wonder, listening to you, I'm reflecting on that you used the word burnout before, that when you were making that shift from being a GP and starting to think about, actually, I could do more of the thing that I'm enjoying the most, which was anaesthetics, that there's a feeling of burnout. Did you have a sense of being burnt out then, or is that a looking-back understanding?
Dr. Andrew Green [00:12:26]:
Yeah, I don't think I had any idea what burnout was back then, but looking back, I think there were enough signs that that's what it was, that, you know, putting that down and going into something else, and you wondered if that was you know, time of recalibration. And like I say, it may be that that was actually a symptom that I needed to do some recalibrating. Um, and that I think that depersonalizing, just seeing people as, you know, a procession of people that I needed to get through the day, um, rather than, you know, opportunity to, you know, connect with people, um, was a sign of that as well.
Sharee Johnson [00:13:04]:
And then that period of, um, during the early years of being an anesthetist, um, that separation or that depersonalizing was more of that evidence of that burnout experience or that, that transition back to something else?
Dr. Andrew Green [00:13:22]:
Yeah, even, even more so. Um, and, and I think looking back, it was, you know, it was a fact that I didn't have the skills that I might have needed do things differently. In a funny way, that conversation with that surgeon, if I think about it, it might be that that was, you know, just cracking the foundations ever so slightly of the old way of doing it. And to be able to have that kind of conversation with him about how it felt or what it meant to have a patient in front of us that, you know, we were both looking at as, you know, being perhaps you know, less of a person than we might like to think of them. You know, was to be able to have that conversation with a surgeon like that might have been just the very start of realizing that there's a different way of doing things, being able to, you know, connect with him over that kind of a thought.
Sharee Johnson [00:14:14]:
Yeah, and his response was kind of reflective as well. I love the idea that the two of you were, you know, in a safe enough space, I suppose, that you were able to to make that noticing out loud. And that is a part of what's important about reflective practice, isn't it? That we can see more clearly, we can say out loud and explore or wonder about something. I'm also wondering, listening to you, what it was like to go back to being a reg. You know, lots of doctors say, oh, I couldn't change now, I couldn't go back into the hospital system at a later stage in their career and become a registrar again. What was that like?
Dr. Andrew Green [00:14:49]:
Yeah, that was definitely a challenge. There are a few stories about how, you know, that I struggle with that a little bit. And particularly about, you know, I think what you're talking about is being, you know, being a reg, being a registrar, being a trainee, being a junior again, having been an independent, you know, practitioner. Um, might have a little bit to do with how I see myself and how other people see me. And the extent to which that matters. And it, you know, it could be, if I look back on it now, and it's easy for me because I'm a long way through the training with all of the, you know, privilege that gives me, but in reality, if I look back, you know, I was doing something that, you know, I enjoyed. I was lucky enough to be giving anesthetics, albeit as a trainee now rather than as an independent GP anesthetist. And even if there were times that I felt like people were, you know, I was at a lower station, you know, I was doing what I wanted to be doing.
Sharee Johnson [00:15:48]:
So, so there's a sort of a balancing out, or, you know, that because you were enjoying the learning that you were doing and the opportunity that you were having, there was enough of that, enough enjoyment and curiosity and learning to, to counteract, if you like, the, the bump back down the hierarchy.
Dr. Andrew Green [00:16:06]:
Yep, for sure. Yeah.
Sharee Johnson [00:16:08]:
What would you— sorry, you look like you're going to say something else.
Dr. Andrew Green [00:16:11]:
No, I think I was going to add that, you know, really it could be that if that was difficult, it might also— you know, one of the skills I think I've, I've learned a little bit is that, you know, a big part of what might have made it difficult might have been the story I told myself about, you know, being at a lower level, even if nobody else was looking at me that way. And being able to catch that and put that aside, you know, maybe I was beating myself up worse than other people were.
Sharee Johnson [00:16:40]:
What stage of life were you up to? You know, you've got a family. Did you have young children at that stage when you made that change?
Dr. Andrew Green [00:16:46]:
Yeah, I did. Um, I, I think both of my children were probably at very early school or preschool age. Um, and I was, um, married to my first wife at that time, and Um, I remember my mother said to me one time, you're studying so hard, you know, just take care of the, the impact on the people around me and my family, which were fairly, you know, sage words. And I've got two ended marriages since then, and, you know, I've got some gratitude to those ladies for what I've learned, but, you know, there was a price to pay for all of that. Time that I've spent. Yeah.
Sharee Johnson [00:17:35]:
I wonder if you've, you know, you— I'm wondering whether I ask you what you would share with that younger self now looking back, or, or maybe with a young doctor. You know, as I said at the beginning, you are working with young doctors in training now as their supervisor. What, what do you take out of those experiences, that change, and the— your mother's comment? What do you bring with you in terms of sharing with those younger doctors now when they're facing these kinds of dilemmas of the toll or the ask of work in the rest of their life?
Dr. Andrew Green [00:18:10]:
Yeah, I can only really speak from my experience because I can't tell them how to do things for themselves. But the answer to that question seems fairly easy to me, and that is that You know, really, life is a journey and it's about the journey. And the difficult times are the things that have made me realize that I need— that something's not working. And the things that haven't been working are, as I've said before, a symptom that I need to think about what I could or should be doing differently. And I guess, you know, I'll probably, if I, if I look back, think, well, each of those difficult times was, um, you know, something to get through and a trigger and a journey along the way. But it was still part of, you know, part of living life.
Sharee Johnson [00:19:10]:
It sounds like, you know, the wisdom of experience, doesn't it? I think there's a, um, there's There's an element, often people ask me, you know, why we don't do things, the things that we do in our work at Coaching for Doctors with younger doctors. And we are available to younger doctors. We sometimes, we certainly are working with younger doctors. And there's some kind of developmental arc, I think, here that, you know, some of what we do requires a readiness and maybe earlier in careers, not probably not just doctors, I think all health professionals, there's a lot to learn and there's a lot of practical things to get across. And there's a lot of life goals, getting married, having small children, things like that that take our attention. And perhaps it's only in mid-career or when we've jumped through some of those hurdles that we have the space to do this kind of reflection. Do you want to comment on that at all?
Dr. Andrew Green [00:20:05]:
Yeah, I think there's a large range of different skill sets, different mindsets. And it might be that we've got to be ready for that transition, or the, the tool's got to be, you know, useful at the time. It might be in the setting that I've chosen a certain career or specialty, you know, that there is an awful lot of, you know, stuff and material to learn, and I've just got to put the effort into doing that. And I think specifically junior doctors are often feeling like you know, if I work hard enough and make sure I've got all of the skills that go with my specialty at hand, you know, then life will get easier because I'll be okay. I'll be a qualified anesthetist, and then, you know, I won't worry anymore. But over time, I've come to realize that, you know, that, you know, it doesn't matter how good I get at my job, there'll always be something that will cause me stress or distress. And additional skill set that I need is how do I handle that stress, or wherever that distress is coming from. And it might not have anything to do with having, you know, all this, you know, top-level skills of being a good anesthetist.
Sharee Johnson [00:21:18]:
The art, the art and science of medicine and life. So, um, who, who have been the people— there would have been— you might want to name them, or you can just name their role or how they came into your life. Who have been the people that have helped you make these discoveries or helped you manage in these transition points?
Dr. Andrew Green [00:21:40]:
There'd be groups of people as well as individuals. So I think there was definitely a time in my life that it wasn't just work that I was struggling with. And at that point in time, as I've said, just the impulse to think, how could things be different? That just trying harder at what I was doing wasn't working. And one of the things I went looking for, and, you know, this is, um, this has been a core, core behavior or activity over years, is, and it's even one of the things that, you know, I, I call them my planks, the things I need to, to do regularly, and it sort of underpins my, my being well, is hanging with them, you know, the men. And I have been sitting with men in men's circles for years Um, so there'd be groups of men that have always been there as a backup, um, and some of them are still there over years. And, you know, um, in particular, there was a time that I was really struggling with, um, a bad outcome at work, and that went on for years, all of the repercussions. And one of those men was very wise and said, you doctors don't, you know, you don't get your feelings out very easily, do you? And it occurred to me that having a group of doctors around me that understood, you know, what we did and how it came up for us and were a safe enough place to do that kind of work was as important. You know, it sounds odd, but sitting in a men's circle is as, you know, as it sounds. We get together, you know, on an evening, we lock the door, we turn the lights down, we light a candle, we sit in a circle and we talk about how we feel. And it just sounds really so alien to a lot of people, and certainly for a group of doctors to do that kind of thing. But it's been pivotal to me to find that— find those people at work who understand and also understand the work. And it led to me trying to create similar circles of doctors, which was really hard going. Like I said, to find a group of doctors like that And it led to me being pointed towards Recalibrate, the program, and finding that, you know, such a group actually, you know, is possible. And so that group has been— and, you know, through that, as part of that, of course, coaching, which is, you know, slightly different, um, uh, and, you know, certainly has been pretty pivotal to me as well.
Sharee Johnson [00:24:32]:
I wonder if we'd just stay with the men's group for a little bit longer, because I think there is a bit of mystery for people who haven't been involved in a men's group, probably for men and women wondering what goes on there. Um, can you say a little bit more about— we'll talk about the gatherings with the doctors, um, in a little bit, but can you just say, give us a bit more flavor of the kinds of men who were there, just to, just to normalize or, um, you know, kind of help people understand literally what that is. You know, you're together for an hour or two, and the men come from where? How do you find each other?
Dr. Andrew Green [00:25:05]:
Um, so we actually constructed our own men's group initially, and it was an offshoot of, you know, some larger groups. Um, and, you know, there's quite a, quite a variety and range of, of men. Um, and the key thing is it's by choice. Um, and there's a degree of commitment and structure to it. Um, so when we started the group, uh, that we had, um, there were 4 of us that committed to showing up every week, and it was just the 4 of us every Wednesday night for 2 years. Um, and, you know, barely one of us missed a single week, um, just to build that safety and connection that would allow us to actually really start going deep on the you know, the stuff we were struggling with. And it formed a really safe space then to start, you know, advertising it. And men would come along and decide if it was for them. Big range of people with different reasons for being there. Some people— and I know it was so for me at times— showing up literally just to be present and hold the space with other men that were struggling more. And there were times that, you know, I just needed to get there on a Wednesday night because, you know, I was struggling and needed to needed to let it out. And the fact that it had structure led to safety as well, that I knew how it was going to go down to a great extent, that, you know, I was— I knew there was confidentiality and a whole lot of other reasons that would make it. Um, and if I talk about it, it might be people say it's all— that's all a bit mystical or a bit, you know, woo-woo. But I'll tell you what, it could be really bloody blokey as well.
Sharee Johnson [00:26:50]:
You know, I think that— I think the thing to notice is that you were intentionally creating a safe place. So there was this confidentiality agreement, uh, and also you were intentionally saying this is a place that we can talk about our feelings, or we can learn to talk about our feelings. You don't have to come fully formed knowing how to do it, um, but we're not only going to talk about the footy and the races and, you know, the sort of stereotypical Australian male conversation, that there is room here to have these different kinds of conversation. And that was a clearly stated intention. That's the thing that seems important to notice from my listening.
Dr. Andrew Green [00:27:32]:
Well, I might almost say I haven't got anything to add to that because you're completely right. But on the, you know, just to reiterate what you said, you know, the space to learn to talk about how we feel. Because it wasn't a skill set that I had, and it's become pretty core and central now. And to actually get the opportunity to practice that in the presence of, you know, of other men— and you're right, that's potentially not stereotypical, but, you know, what if it could be?
Sharee Johnson [00:28:03]:
Yeah. Um, so you, you, um, identified or noticed that there was some other things you might learn how to do, and you found a way to do that? And what difference has it made in your— you know, have you developed that skill set, and has it proven to be something that's been useful?
Dr. Andrew Green [00:28:24]:
Um, I think so. In fact, um, one of the— I think one of the most useful things for me now is the opportunity just to notice, notice what's going on with me, you know, maybe think about what's going on with the other person, um, and, and being able to recognize the feeling as it comes up rather than just be driven by it. Um, so how does that, how does that show up? Um, for starters, I, I think it, there is evidence of that from the people around me. For instance, I've got adult children now, and they used to rate the degrees of, you know, Andrew angry, and they actually give it a rating scale. And they say it's a long time since they've seen, you know, the higher levels, which, which feels pretty nice.
Sharee Johnson [00:29:22]:
I'm gonna say, how do you feel about that? You can see the relief on your face.
Dr. Andrew Green [00:29:26]:
Yeah, it feels, it feels pretty nice. Um, and, you know, I'm, I'm gonna own it because I've had more than a couple of instances from quite different parts of my life where people have said, you know, how calm I seem or how still I am. And I like being that way. And I think it comes from being able to, you know, notice something happening and, you know, even my response or my reaction to it on the inside, but not feel like I need to do anything with it straight away. Um, and, you know, a big part of recalibrate is mindfulness, which I think is the first time that I'd come across that term and what it was all about. But it's, you know, it's just central now for me. And I think that mindfulness is about, you know, the noticing, noticing of what's coming up on the inside, being able to actually physically feel my feelings. Some of the work I did in the men's circles was around, um, you know, being able to name and label feelings. And I, you know, in years gone past, I recognized that you know, apart from, you know, maybe, maybe, you know, really pleasant feelings, there was so much stuff that was difficult that I just felt it all in the same way and couldn't really name it or label it. And being able to have a space where I could actually experience that and sit with it and realize that I could let it be there and it wouldn't do me any harm to have that feeling, and in a way be able to just I'll say let it be there, let it go, has been a central skill. So, you know, it doesn't drive me when I'm, you know, have something happen around me anymore. Not in, you know, like I talk about this, but you know, there's instances.
Sharee Johnson [00:31:10]:
You're still human.
Dr. Andrew Green [00:31:11]:
Yeah.
Sharee Johnson [00:31:12]:
I think, I mean, the psychological things that you're pointing to is discernment. So this discernment of where in my body is this and how is it different to something else, you know, that, Anxiety feels different to anger, and anger feels different to resentment. And, you know, these things might be in the same part of our body, or they might be different. And how do we interpret that, those signals, in real time? I think this is such a valuable skill set for people who work under pressure, not just doctors, but anyone who's working under some kind of time pressure or expectation pressure, who's able to discern in the moment, in the heat, what is this signal, what does it mean, and how do I regulate that or manage that, now has a whole lot of other choices available to them in terms of their next steps or their next behavior. I think that's what you're describing, this ability to name— you know, we say we name it to tame it when we're talking about our emotions— this ability to name something and then, you know, pause long enough momentarily to be able to remember that there is a choice here in how we react. I think that's what you're describing in your experience.
Dr. Andrew Green [00:32:24]:
100%. Um, I don't know how much more to say about it. Um, even in my professional practice, um, in the pointiest end of, you know, critical stuff going on, and, you know, a lot of people in medical practice will recognize there are some— sometimes that the crisis is so severe it doesn't seem like there's even time think, uh, and I think that skill is applicable there. And, you know, it was— it amazed me one day when I was— I caught myself in the middle of managing quite a serious crisis in an operating theater, and, you know, I caught myself just closing my eyes for a second and taking a deep breath and then being able to turn around and go, right, what next? And when I noticed that I've done it, and it's almost giving me shivers now thinking about it, Um, you know, the next instance that there was a crisis, I made a decision to do that same thing. And, um, you know, it's not uncommon for people to turn and say, you know, you just seem so calm. And, you know, it's not like I am every minute, but, you know, it's, it's a skill that can be practiced, and I don't think it's trained as part of anesthetic training.
Sharee Johnson [00:33:40]:
Well, wouldn't that be amazing to think that it is embedded in the training from the get-go? I mean, you just use one of my favorite words, or at least one of the words I say most often, which is practice. And I think that's disappointing for people sometimes to think, I've got to, what do you mean I've got to practice, you know, taking a breath? I've been breathing however many thousands of times every day. Why do I have to practice it? It's this intentional awareness, this awareness that I can take a breath in this moment. You've probably heard me say before that an ED doctor said to me one day, there's not actually that many life and death moments in reality. I think we do well to remember that. Of course, there are those events in medicine every day all around the, all around the world, and there are a lot of mundane, ordinary routine moments in between where we can practice noticing where we are, what's the emotion in our body, can I take one breath. And if we do that, it's much more accessible to us than in those emergency situations. Um, you told me a few years ago you were in your 40s— let's, let's not try and guess what number— um, that you hadn't taken any holidays, that you didn't take holidays, and you were about to go off on quite a fabulous holiday to Europe at that stage. It was a new experience for you to step out of working lots of hours every week to go on holidays. What happened? What changed your mind? And does that you decided you'd go for a holiday?
Dr. Andrew Green [00:35:11]:
Um, well, I had to say I was bad at taking holidays. I, I know that I was. Um, and in fact, I think again my family probably suffered. And there was a point in time that I'd said to the kids, look, you know, let's just make sure that I schedule at least some holidays. And they knew that second week of the September school holidays and the first week of January we would go away. That's it. But that's not much. And, um, there was— you're right, that instance that I went away on that holiday, and it was while— I think it was while I was away I actually realized I had never in the length of my medical, my career, taken 3, 4 weeks off at a stretch. And it was while I was away I realized that. And, um, I, I think it came from It was actually another holiday a year later as well, um, which was hard because I'd just gotten back and my, my partner was talking to me saying, I'm just starting to plan our next trip, and I've gone, hold on a minute, we've, we've just done 3 weeks. And, you know, um, but, but it was— I think it was on the second trip that we went for again 3 weeks, and this one was South America, and I started to actually be intentional about saying you know, actually I get to choose. Um, and being on that trip, um, and I think I was standing under Christ the Redeemer in Rio, which is somewhere I'd always wanted to go. We went to Machu Picchu on that trip as well. It was a pretty good one. Um, but standing there and realizing that I was here in this place because I wanted to be, not to keep somebody else happy, and not even for anything other than just the pure joy of being here. In this moment. And that was quite a, quite a wake-up moment to sort of realize that I was perhaps not indispensable, um, that the things I wanted to do were things that I was able to schedule and could do, and that living life now rather than saying, oh, one day I'll go to the Redemer in Manchupichu. And so what unfolded after that, and, and I wonder if you're hoping to ask, was about the 3 months of long service leave that I took last year, and the fact that that was, as you've alluded to earlier, a practice, an opportunity to say, what would it be like if I just said to all of the surgeons and people writing rosters at all the different hospitals and places that I work at that I'm going to be away for, you know, months, and that's from this date to this date? And I very, you know, just specifically said, I'm sorry, just if you need me on a list on that time, I won't be there. You just have to cover me. And I hope that you'll still have me back when I get back. And that was the practice, to put it all down and think, you know, okay, who am I now and what, what am I going to— and, you know, and am I still wanted and needed and Yeah.
Sharee Johnson [00:38:20]:
And so what have you learned? Have you, um, you know, it almost sounds like you've got a more three-dimensional version of Andrew happening now.
Dr. Andrew Green [00:38:28]:
Yeah. Um, I, the, the what, how I spent the time was amazing, um, because I literally threw a swag in the boot of my Ford Falcon and drove across the Nullarbor and up the West Coast, and I did it myself, and my 15-year-old daughter joined me for a week as part of the trip. It was much more, um, uh, it was much more complex than that, but that's pretty much it. And my partner flew over and met me, and we drove back together, but the bulk of the trip was just spent alone. Um, and we've alluded to how important mindfulness is, and I just spent hours at a time um, driving, not listening to anything, just looking at where I was. And, um, and, uh, I think some of the best highlights of the trip was just the space in between all the places I was going to and seeing what came up and feeling safe just to see what came up and, you know, what was there. Um, and not be always doing stuff to try and, you know, shove it down or ignore it, or busyness, which is, I think, how so many of us, um— and to me, that would have been, you know, a really difficult place to be in, in years gone by. I would always be thinking, I need to be doing something for other people, you know, this holiday should be for the children, 'Um, I have to get back to be present for this list, you know, on this day,' and all of that kind of story that, you know, was about, um, I guess that other person that I, I probably was already.
Sharee Johnson [00:40:20]:
Yeah, that, that need to be needed or liked. I mean, I meet both of those things in doctors of all kinds of specialties, all all parts of their career. You know, we use words like, we say, oh, people pleasing or perfectionism, or really there's this core thing in us all that we want to be seen and heard and valued. And, uh, you know, you're describing beautifully the individual work we can do, um, to, to have those experiences. I think, you know, the, the next step, the exciting step, is when we can collectively or organizationally, systemically have that more embedded in medical training and medical practice, that, you know, where we want to be seen and heard and valued. And when we feel that, we give a lot of discretionary effort, we have a lot of meaning in our work, other things flow from that that are, that are useful.
Dr. Andrew Green [00:41:17]:
I really agree with what you're saying, and I think there's, there's some more as well, and that is that a lot of the time we pull ourselves out of shape so so that we're trying to be what will make us needed, wanted, and appreciated, so that we feel like, you know, we're doing a good job, or that our job is secure, or that we'll be allowed to progress. And how would it be if I could learn just to get very familiar with who I am and what I need to be, you know, just as happy as I can be? And that our workplaces and our employers and our training programs might know that if they want us to be committed to our jobs and everything, that they might look for a way to really be helping us get that from our work rather than requiring us to fit and tick their boxes. They're looking for ways to get us as happy with, you know, in a role that satisfies their own needs And then, you know, maybe we won't burn out. Maybe we'll be even more committed, and maybe we'll work, you know, harder and better.
Sharee Johnson [00:42:30]:
And yes, one another phrase that I like, be the employer of choice. So, um, can we go back again, Andrew, a little bit to your efforts? You know, you were looking to try and make these circles of doctors for— to find ways for doctors to come together. And you, you know, you had a pretty decent crack at that when we first met in 2019. You were coming to learn about, you know, what was our Recalibrate program, but you had already at that time been trying to convene these groups in one of your workplaces. Can you tell us a little bit about what happened? Because there is this general interest in doctor wellbeing and lots of people saying, well, how, how do we do that? And I think one of the ways we might learn how to do that is by sharing with each other the experiments that we've run, the, you know, our good ideas that might not have got off the ground that as well as we wanted to, but they have compounded and, and brought us to this place now with our— you know, we, we've come to where we are because of those experiments. Can you tell us what you, what you envisaged, what you tried to do?
Dr. Andrew Green [00:43:31]:
Yeah, um, so I, I mentioned the men's circles and the fact that, you know, they, they had a fair degree of structure to them, which led to some safety, and there was um, it led, it led, it led to me thinking, well, how would it be if as doctors we could, you know, get together people who also needed that space and had an understanding of the, uh, the stress or the things that we were struggling with in work-specific sense? Um, and so I kind of felt like modeling it on the men's circles to start with, um, invitation, uh, it was fairly wide invitation to, you know, in particular the— this will— to start with the same craft group that I was working with. So, you know, I started at one of the hospitals where I was predominantly employed and, you know, invited almost everyone from the anesthetic team. And I had some support from some of the men in the men's circles that actually, you know, traveled to regional Victoria to help, you know, facilitate or co-facilitate the circles that we were running. And we ran quite a few of them over a period of time. And I guess the thing was that it was not that— it felt like it wasn't that easy for people who knew themselves, knew each other at work, to get together and, you know, open up about, you know, feeling and stuff in a situation they might not have felt completely safe.
Sharee Johnson [00:45:08]:
Were you trying to meet at the workplace, or were you meeting after work?
Dr. Andrew Green [00:45:11]:
No, it was outside of work. So we, we had the, the meetings in, in a private circumstance on our own time. Um, and so it was, you know, and it was specifically not— it was not intended to be about work-related, about specific cases even, although obviously they, in, you know, in a lot of cases, meetings A lot of situations meetings contain, you know, clinical information in its context, but it wasn't— it was about— it was really intended to be about, you know, how these things impacted us. And I think, you know, we've got to be ready for that kind of space. And I think there's a lot of people came along to try it out, um, but when felt that they— it wasn't for them or didn't need it, and to try and to try and build that sort of thing. I think contain it, you know, to build a container and to have some continuity and, you know, a sense that people feel at home, it requires people to get to know each other in that space and some ongoing. And, you know, it was just hard to get it, to get it running and have enough attendance over a period of time. Um, and for me, it really it, it led to me where, when I heard about Recalibrate, realizing that, you know, almost from another, another angle, you were starting to create something similar. And, and, um, or, or I see that there is, you know, this space. Um, I haven't, you know, I haven't built it as such as been part of it. Um, so it does exist in short. And I think the thing is it's a much wider, wider community and sitting in that situation with people I have to then look at the next day at work probably is one of the things that makes it a bit easier.
Sharee Johnson [00:47:06]:
Yeah, I think we went with, with it, with the Recalibrate program. We ran the pilot in 2018. You came the first year that we were cold to the market, as we, as we say, you know, that we had gone out saying, okay, we've got this thing, is anybody else interested? And we'd been up— well, we since then have been up a similar road in that I really imagined that it might have been something we offered to hospitals and delivered inside of hospitals. But as we have delivered it, you know, going into our 9th year this year, you and I are starting our next program this Saturday with our new cohort, which is always an exciting moment. Um, uh, that people weren't sure about doing this work with people that they had to work with, and that they're— that the anonymity that is, is found in a group where you arrive all strangers not knowing each other or not knowing each other well and working in different systems and different departments seems to foster better work in terms of the emotional work at least, and the, the self-discovery and the exploring of awareness and what you notice that you hadn't noticed before, that you might be surprised to notice. That seems to happen more readily in these external-to-workplace groups. If anybody's listening to this and does think that 'Oh, let's try that in the hospital.' I'd love to hear from you, but I really have moved away from that.
Dr. Andrew Green [00:48:27]:
I don't know. I agree. I think there are, there are individual doctors that I still work with or alongside or know well who have also done Recalibrate. And I think having, having the opportunity to speak a similar language or have a similar understanding with them but we're not always present in the same meetings or gatherings of the Recalibrate alumni. So I think both things are true.
Sharee Johnson [00:48:59]:
And certainly there is that ripple effect of people who've had value in the program telling their peers and their colleagues and often others from the same workplace coming in different cohorts as that rolls out through the years. When you came to Recalibrate, it was a very female-dominated group.
Dr. Andrew Green [00:49:13]:
Group.
Sharee Johnson [00:49:14]:
So you'd been in the men's circles, you'd been trying to create groups in health of men and women, and, you know, nursing, I think, and doctors and, and other techs or whoever. Um, and then you arrived at Recalibrate in this very female-dominated world. I still think you were quite brave at that stage. How do you remember that? What was that experience like? And, and what was it that got you over the line, that helped you think this might help me in this transition or this work that I'm doing at this part of my life?
Dr. Andrew Green [00:49:49]:
Um, the first thing that comes to mind is it didn't—
Sharee Johnson [00:49:53]:
it—
Dr. Andrew Green [00:49:54]:
I don't think it had a huge impact on me that I was, you know, the only male in that, in that group, um, doing Recalibrate at that time. Um, so it didn't it was okay for me, which is not to say it wouldn't be a problem for some.
Sharee Johnson [00:50:08]:
Yes.
Dr. Andrew Green [00:50:09]:
Um, and, um, the second part of your question, I think, um, just alludes me. What was, what was that? Too wordy.
Sharee Johnson [00:50:24]:
Um, what was it that brought you there? What was the thing that had you feel like, I'm going to do this program?
Dr. Andrew Green [00:50:31]:
Um, I think really what it was— well, it was a conversation with you that got me across the line, and it was pointed to a common friend of ours who, you know, Sarah Wilmer, who has sadly passed. And, you know, um, won't ever, um, forget that it was her who— and we did it together. Um, and, um, so that I think me across the line. But in reality, I think I was looking for a way— was looking for a way to, um, bring what, what, what I felt was, you know, that, that ability to do— get through the difficult feeling, um, you know, do that on— with the, the context of the stuff that you know, was coming up at work.
Sharee Johnson [00:51:27]:
So when you did come to Recalibrate, what was the thing at that time that got you—
Dr. Andrew Green [00:51:31]:
got you—
Sharee Johnson [00:51:32]:
helped you decide, yep, I'm going to do this program?
Dr. Andrew Green [00:51:38]:
Um, was definitely a phone call. A conversation sold me and made me realize it would, you know, it would be very much worth my while. Um, and In addition, I had been struggling with some difficult events at work and having that space to work through that, or the safe space and the colleagues who were speaking the same language. And, you know, very quickly realized that that was available. Specifically, uh, you know, a very difficult event that went on for years, um, of, you know, repeatedly coming up and, and the feelings that would come up when similar events happened at work. And, and practicing, um, being able to have those difficult feelings but also needing the space and the people around me that could, you know, number one, understand the, the events and, you know, the, the way it went down. And also be a safe space to talk about, you know, how it— how, um, and, you know, that repeating, um, asset to have that, you know, that community. Um, so I got the impression that was available, you know, from starting, and I was looking for it, and, you know, it's been that way.
Sharee Johnson [00:53:10]:
Your internet's a bit weird again. We'll keep going because we're nearly finished, and we'll just cross our fingers. But I do want to talk about Sarah, so since you've mentioned her, um, I think, uh, one of our colleagues who has sadly since passed, we might dedicate this episode to her memory, Sarah Wilmot was in that group, in your cohort as well, and the two of you worked together some of the time. Was she a part of how you found your way into that group?
Dr. Andrew Green [00:53:45]:
Yes, Sarah actually showed me the pamphlet and this, or said that she was doing it, and I said, that looks, you know, exactly what I, I need to be doing. And, um, you know, led to me calling Um, so I'll never forget that she was, you know, pretty much getting me where I am now. Um, and there's a couple of other things that, you know, you, you were saying that she said, um, earlier. You were saying about, um, you know, that space between, you know, feeling something coming up and choosing how to respond. And that is, I think, comes from a quote that she always pointed to, and I can never hear the name Viktor Frankl, uh, man, for meaning, um, because he said that it's in the space between, um, the, uh, stimulus and the response that, you know, we get to choose. And finding that space— and Sarah, um, very— I just can always remember her saying that.
Sharee Johnson [00:54:50]:
Yeah, so we'll put the Viktor Frankl book in the show notes for people. Um, a very well-known psychiatrist from the Second World War, who, you know, many, many speakers reference. I think that, that idea of the last human freedom is what he called it, that, that space between the stimulus and response. Nobody can take that away from you. We just need to get familiar with it and remember it's there. Yeah, well, well, valet to Sarah. She certainly made a big impact on me, and I'm, I'm very pleased and proud to have included her in our Recalibrate community.
Dr. Andrew Green [00:55:27]:
Yeah.
Sharee Johnson [00:55:28]:
Um, there's a lot more I could talk with you about, Andrew. Um, we've got some glitches happening with our internet, and I think we're near the end of, um, the conversation. So I'll just ask you, in the course of our conversation today, has there been anything that's come up for you that you'd like to point to, you think has been important in your, in your, um, I guess the opportunities you've had during your life to recalibrate?
Dr. Andrew Green [00:55:53]:
Um, I think what comes up for me right now might be, um, also occurred in, in the invitation to talk to you here in this way. It might be that I think in times gone by I might very much have thought, well, you know, why me? Is the story I've got to tell actually that, that useful? And, and I think the change has, has occurred over time that, you know, that whole imposter syndrome thing is just evaporating faster and faster. And it's like, well, you know, this is just me. I'm okay just to tell my story, and, you know, it's okay as it is, and, and, um, so be it. And, you know, it could be, uh, some gratitude for the chance to tell it and, you know, be satisfied that it's good enough.
Sharee Johnson [00:56:43]:
Well, I think, um, we certainly value having you in our Recalibrate alumni community, and it's been, uh, you know, one The gifts for me that you have joined in facilitating, co-facilitating some of our Recalibrate groups, and I think, you know, the learning side by side with you has been, you know, a great gift in my life that couldn't have been anticipated. I'm very, very grateful for your contribution to the things I've learned about medicine and how we can recalibrate, and I'm very grateful for your time today. So thank you for all that you've shared with us.
Dr. Andrew Green [00:57:13]:
Thank you for having me.
Sharee Johnson [00:57:17]:
Well, I hope you enjoyed Dr. Andrew Green's story today. He's led a very interesting medical life in terms of changing specialties. It's really quite precious to hear him talking about the work that he's done in the men's group. And, you know, he said to me when we finished recording, I really don't think that I would have made the progress that I've made in understanding my emotions and, and being able to work with them without the men's group. So So I really hope that you, um, you know, piqued your curiosity if you're, if you're a male listening to this, uh, this episode. And, um, really want to encourage everybody to think about what Andrew said in terms of, um, being able to look internally and to name what's happening, to notice that in your body. And then he's— he very often says when we're conversation something that he's grateful for. And we haven't talked on the, on the podcast yet much about gratitude. I just want to notice his comment at the end about feeling some gratitude for who he is and where his journey has brought him to, and that who he is is perfectly okay. And just to recognize the deep humanity and the deep humility in that statement, that we can all find a place to rest in the knowledge that, you know, I'm okay, that we were all born worthy. And somehow along the way we seem to lose that. And I hear that a lot in medicine, that people are talking about, um, you know, that they're not good enough. And the thing that really stands out from this conversation with Andrew is the readiness to practice, his willingness to be curious and to practice and to arrive at this place. And I think he would be the first to say there's no arriving, it's ongoing work. But to be in this place where he can often have the experience of saying, it's enough, I'm okay. So I hope you enjoyed the episode. I'm very grateful that we have Dr. Liz Wearn and Dr. Andrew Green as our co-facilitators in Recalibrate. And if you are looking to learn some more about Recalibrate, please go to the coachingfordoctors.net.au website and register your name on the waitlist for our next cohort. And for now, may you be well. The content in this podcast is not intended to constitute or be a substitute Institute for professional medical or psychological advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or other qualified healthcare professional. This podcast represents the views of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect those of any entity we work with or for.
