Sharee Johnson:
Hello and welcome to Recalibrating with me, Sharee Johnson, where you'll hear healthcare professionals and others sharing their stories of recalibrating life when the unexpected happened. As a psychologist and a coach, I've been listening deeply to people's stories for 35 years, and I've come to believe two things about people. The first is, having witnessed so many incredible stories of hope, adaptability, and human capacity, I truly believe that we are all capable of so much more than we really think we are. In times of challenge, humans have demonstrated that over and over again. Here on the Recalibrating Podcast, you'll get to hear amazing stories of healthcare professionals and others pivoting, overcoming, and recalibrating their lives. The second thing that the research and my experiences as a psychologist have shown me is that humans need each other. We need people. When we have support around us, when we tell each other our stories, when we connect through through the reality of living our lives, we do so much better than when we pull back and hide what's really going on for us. Together on this podcast, we're going to unearth and amplify what helps us as humans, individually and collectively, to recalibrate in ways that help us change, grow, adapt, even surprise ourselves when life throws us a curveball. This podcast offers you the chance to be inspired and encouraged to meet the unexpected in your life with grace, skills, and a belief in your own human capacity. Life is full of opportunities to recalibrate with agency, the right mindset, the right resources, and the right community. So let's welcome today's storyteller, who has recalibrated multiple times in her life Dr. Elizabeth Wearne. Dr. Liz Wearne grew up in country Victoria and studied medicine at Monash University. Today she lives and works on beautiful Gunai Kurnai country here in the southeastern corner of mainland Australia, having shaped a portfolio career that includes medical practice as a GP, roles in education, advisory positions, and in governance. Liz currently works in a large Aboriginal community-controlled Health Organisation and is proud to be building on two decades of relationships with the local Aboriginal community. She is a senior lecturer for Monash University and a board director of the Gippsland Primary Health Network. Liz is the co-creator of our doctor development program, Recalibrate. One of the very good fortunes of my life to have her as a co-facilitator in many of our Recalibrate groups. Alongside her medical work, Liz has a dedicated artistic practice in ceramics and has recently exhibited her work in a number of shows around Gippsland. Really exciting. And she has relished the opportunity to grow her creative life, which we touch on in this conversation. I'm so delighted to launch the podcast Recalibrating with Sharee Johnson with this conversation. Dr. Liz Wearne has been a generous collaborator, a wise mentor, and a curious, encouraging friend. I'm excited to introduce her to you as she shares some of her stories of recalibrating her life as a doctor. Hi Liz, how are you?
Dr. Liz Wearne:
Good, it's great to see you. How are you?
Dr. Liz Wearne:
Really well, thank you. It's lovely to see you too. I'm so delighted today on this first episode of Recalibrating with Sharee Johnson to introduce you all to Dr. Liz Wearne. Liz is a general practitioner, a family physician for those of you not in Australia, who works in a regional area of Victoria and has a really interesting story. I've known Liz for 12 or 13 years, and I'm just so excited to share— to have her share some of her story with you all. So welcome to the podcast, Liz, and thank you for being our first guest.
Dr. Liz Wearne:
Thank you. Thank you so much. I feel very honored that you've asked me at all. And, um, you know, I love— I— you and I have had countless conversations over the years. I love talking with you, so I'm very, very honored to be here. Thanks for having me.
Sharee Johnson:
Pleasure.
Dr. Liz Wearne:
It's—
Sharee Johnson:
we're just going to have a great conversation. So let's start with your clinical work. So I've said already that you're a GP. So can you tell us a little bit about your, your current clinical work?
Dr. Liz Wearne:
Yeah, sure. I, I work very part-time these days in clinical practice. I work locally. I live in, in East Gippsland, and I work in a local Aboriginal community-controlled health organization as a GP. I've worked there for— I think I've just gone 4 years in this current iteration. I did work there back in 2008 for a brief time as well. But it's lovely work. It's— yeah, it's an extension of, I guess, other roles I've had in this area, working with our local Aboriginal community, which, yeah, is just my favourite kind of work, really.
Sharee Johnson:
Can you say a little bit more about that, Liz? What is it about working with the Aboriginal community?
Dr. Liz Wearne:
Yeah, I think I started working with the community down here in East Gippsland back when I was myself training 20 years ago down here, so beginning of 2006 when I started training. So it's been a long relationship with a lot of families in the area, and I think What I love most is having walked alongside a lot of people that I get to see in my job for a long time and feeling the gravity of the trust that people put in me. I think if we look at history and we look at a lot of Aboriginal people's experiences of Western healthcare, it hasn't been pleasant, and it feels really meaningful to me to I guess, put some dignity back in healthcare for people and make it a positive experience that feels empowering for people rather than a grind or, you know, an ugly experience that dehumanizes. So that feels very purposeful for me.
Sharee Johnson:
Yeah, I'm really struck listening to you about your sense of connection with the community that you're working with. Is that different to other clinical settings that you've worked in?
Dr. Liz Wearne:
Yes and no. I think, I think, I think there's a degree to which feeling included or feeling trusted feels bigger to me when it's coming from my Aboriginal friends and colleagues. I think, I think when, when the odds are against me being trustworthy, having that trust feels huge. It's a huge responsibility. So, but also I think just naturally I'm drawn to environments where there's a lot of laughter and a lot of joy and a lot of pride. And I haven't felt that as much in mainstream settings as I do in Aboriginal health service settings. So that makes my work feel much more light, I guess. And, you know, yes, there's a lot of heaviness and a lot of distress and a lot of trauma, but there's so much joy and so much connectedness and so much that I learn about how to be a better person in the world when I watch the way a lot of the Aboriginal people I know look after each other and stay healthy. And that, you know, it's mutually beneficial. I learn so much about being a better person.
Sharee Johnson:
And I'm I'm really hearing you use that word purpose, but I'm really hearing, um, your values coming out in, in that conversation, in what you've just said as well, that there's an alignment in what you're looking for in your work, or perhaps more broadly in your life, and what you're experiencing with this community.
Dr. Liz Wearne:
Oh yeah, and it's, it's not just in the way I can have those relationships it's the way the work is structured to allow me to have those relationships. I mean, I've had the experience of working in a practice where I was working very fast and seeing a lot of patients each hour. And yeah, I felt great, and I felt really like I was, you know, meeting a need and servicing a lot of people. But I was like a kid running down a hill, and I couldn't, I couldn't stop. I sort of felt there was a point at which that felt really unsafe. Whereas now, working in the Aboriginal health sector, the model of care is different. There's longer appointments, there's time and space for reflection on what you're doing. There's a lot more collaboration with the people around you in the building day to day, so a lot more conversation. I know that as the white lady doctor, I can't do a lot for some people, I need the help of an Aboriginal health worker or a driver or a social and emotional wellbeing worker. Like, I have— it's so interdependent with other people. And that model of care suits me because my values are about that in life too, are about working together with people and living in a world where we're all interdependent on each other and we have to we have a responsibility in that system. So it suits, it suits the way I think and the way I am.
Sharee Johnson:
I think it's, it's such a contrast to a lot of GPs that I have worked with who are in, you know, the mega clinic, who often have sometimes said to me, I've went to that clinic for more collegiality, but actually we're all behind our own doors in our own room. I don't see anybody all day.
Dr. Liz Wearne:
Yeah. And that That was my experience in a previous life. I think I found it incredibly lonely and, and not, and not because I was working with people that didn't care about that. I think just the pace of the work meant that everybody was just trying to stay alive, really, and trying to meet an unmeetable need and working faster and faster and faster and faster and And I think unfortunately, you know, currently in Australia, to make ends meet, a lot of GPs have to work that way. And it's a real shame because I think it takes away on not just from the quality of care we can provide, but the quality of life we can have as doctors where we're actually thinking about what we're doing and we're taking time to, you know, really celebrate when amazing things happen, as they frequently do, or to give time and space to the things we need to honor in our work. It's a very sacred job in a lot of ways, and we need space to, to do it well, I think.
Sharee Johnson:
Yeah, really powerful language that you're using there. Just to give, um, people who don't know you, who are just learning about Liz Wearne, uh, just to give a bit more context, can you walk us through a little bit, uh, you know, from intern to now? You've had lots of other roles between in between and around your clinical work. You've, you've worked in academia, in policy and governance, as a medical educator. Can you tell us a little bit more about— flesh out that sort of portfolio for me a little bit for us?
Dr. Liz Wearne:
Yeah, sure. It's, um, it's funny to sit and reflect on it now because that's, you know, 23— 22, 23 years now, and it feels like simultaneously it's gone really quickly, but so much has, has happened as well. So I, and I feel like I had a fairly, um, boring middle-class Australian-born and trained, you know, childhood and high school experience where, you know, I had a lot of privilege. I had parents who made sure I went to school, and, you know, I didn't really go without at all in my childhood. So I kind of, and I feel like I just kind of landed in medical school. I wasn't the kid growing up desperate to be a doctor or anything. I just kind of landed there and thought, what am I doing here? And And I think when I look back to medical school, I think I just put my head down because I was so terrified of failure that I, that I just kind of thought, don't look like an idiot and make sure you get through this unscathed. And then all of a sudden you wake up and you're an intern and you are having family meetings with people whose loved one is dying and you're like, holy moly, holy moly. Like, how did I get here? But yeah, I did my intern year and a second postgraduate year in a large hospital in Melbourne. And I just knew even as a junior doctor, I didn't really know what specialty I wanted to go into, but I just knew I wanted to go back and live in the country again. That was my— I have this strong memory of lying in my bed in my beautiful little flat one night in Richmond listening to the thrum of the traffic and just pretending that in my mind it was the sound of, of the ocean. So that was very, very big deal for me. So, and I think, I think that's when I look back at a few changes in my life, where I live is a really strong compass point for me and where I am located is important. So I decided to go into general practice training largely because it's really hard to go and live in rural, a rural area and do all your training in that one place. So I was lucky enough to score a training place here in Gippsland, you know, home turf for me. And I came back and I moved to Lakes Entrance, which is a, you know, small-sized rural town on the ocean. And it was familiar to me. I'd spent a lot of my childhood weekends and summers there, so it felt very I felt very at home there, um, and yeah, jump, jump straight in. And I, I was really fortunate because I— and I look back to that time of being a trainee, I worked with people who just sort of gave me these opportunities out of nowhere that I could choose to do or not. And I had two key people who, who kind of invited me into the world of teaching early. I had a wonderful GP teacher by the name of Ali Barnes who rang me up out of the blue one day and said, would you like to come and teach medical students alongside your clinical work? And I said, oh sure, why not. And my wonderful supervisor during my training, Paddy Kinsella from Lakes, who was fairly prolific in the GP education world then, he pretty much while I was still training, said, why don't you think about getting involved in teaching your peers more? So while I was a registrar, I was actively involved. You know, I had a senior lecturer role and then started getting into medical education as well with the GP training program locally. And yeah, so I, again, I kind of fell into it, but got into it and loved it. And I think looking back, there was a bit of a blessing and a curse because if you fast forward 10 years ahead of that, I'd said yes to so many things that the wheels kind of fell off a little bit for me. But, you know, in that period of time, I got to do a variety of clinical jobs. I got to do a lot of work in outreach clinics, remote communities around here. But I got to teach different year levels of students. I got to mentor other GP trainees. Yeah, that sort of 5 or 6 years of my— the end of my registrar training and the first few years of fellowship were really, really very centered around education. And I was working— I think I was working most of that, about 3 days a week in practice. So it was a tough balance. I look back at me 12, 13 years ago, and I don't know how she balanced it all, really. Yeah.
Sharee Johnson:
So even though you're saying, I kind of accidentally ended up in education, you went on to do a master's in education. So you, you found some other part of you that you wanted to nourish or prioritize, can you say?
Dr. Liz Wearne:
Yeah, I think so. I think, and I think it would be— I think it would be easy for me to say that I, I teach because it's kind of in my blood. Both my parents are teachers, my sister's a teacher, I've got uncles and aunts who, who are teachers. So, but I think when I look through my life at the formative people in it, and again, it goes back to what I said earlier about values, like it's about sharing. And, um, to me, teaching is about saying, let's, let's sort of build a world together where we're sharing what we know and We're trying to build a reality together. That, that's all I feel like it is. I don't know everything. Teaching's not about me transmitting information to you. It's, it's about saying, well, here's a problem or here's a scenario. Let's work our way through how to get through it and how to make sense of it. It's about, it's meaning making, isn't it? So, so I feel like it's only natural to me now that I, that that's where I ended up. But I love learning. I love learning about how humans make sense of things. I love learning about, you know, the theoretical basis of what we're doing, what other thinkers have thought about how we learn. Yeah, it's just— I smile when I think about those roles, and that's why— how I know that they're where I need to be.
Sharee Johnson:
I want to come back here again in a minute, but you painted a really visceral image of lying in Richmond imagining that the traffic was the thrum of the beach, the waves. Like, that's a really powerful image. You really hit me between the eyes with that one. So, like, you know, I could feel that, that, that young country kid who's been in Melbourne at that stage for, you know, 6, 7, 8 years and is somehow, you know, hankering or missing. That's a, that's a real moment of recalibration, a real noticing of what do I need now that I've jumped through the hurdles or ticked the boxes, or, you know, there's a moment here for me to choose. I'm actually getting some sort of tingling thinking about it. Can you say a little bit more about that in terms of, you know, this older you reflecting and looking back on that younger you half a lifetime time ago.
Dr. Liz Wearne:
Yeah.
Sharee Johnson:
And what, what, what she knew somehow inherently about making that change, or what, what you've learned since? Some—
Dr. Liz Wearne:
and I get tingly because I, I'm so proud of her for doing that, because I, I think about periods of my life where I have had to recalibrate. It's such a great, a great concept, isn't it, that we— and it's not always at times of change, sometimes it's, it's actually at times of intense insight into a part of ourselves that we weren't, we weren't aware of. And we have to kind of come face to face with the truth of who we are and, and shift course perhaps a little bit or, or retell a story that we've been telling ourselves that doesn't serve us anymore. But I think all of those, for me, all of those periods in my life where that's happened, the, the feeling before they've happened is is this sense of yearning for something. Um, not even— I don't even know whether it's yearning for something different. It's just a sense of, uh, yeah, a sense of just— yeah, yearning's the only word, or longing, or something. It doesn't, it doesn't feel like a negative feeling. It's— and it's perhaps only something I can say in retrospect, but all of those times It's almost like you're preparing yourself for propulsion forward, aren't you? This— you just know something's, something's not where it needs to be. It's not aligned, it's not comfortable, um, it's— it doesn't feel real, it feels rehearsed or performative. Yeah, I think, I think for me that looking back, those times, even, even as a young child, Sharee, you know, times when I Um, you know, I can remember being a teenager, and, you know, all young teenagers have friendships that come and go. And I think about times when friendships ended with, with people, and before that happened, I just, I, I had an instinct that, that it needed to— things needed to end, or things needed to change, or it just wasn't wasn't me. I've always felt, felt strongly that, that instinct, and I'm just really proud of my young self and the people around me that gave me the conditions to be able to trust my instincts and follow my instincts. That's— I've been very, very fortunate.
Sharee Johnson:
I love in your reflection there that you're noticing the internal scaffold and the external scaffold, that there was something happening internally that you were able to notice, you know, you, you were able to— even if you couldn't put words, even if you just knew that you were imagining the waves, you know, um, something was happening internally. And then now in reflection to notice, and also there were external things that helped. Oh yeah, helped that. And you referenced already, um, Paddy and Ellie. Yeah, who were significant people, um, more senior to you at the time. And also now you have other roles in, you know, you're on the PHN, you have involvement with the PHN, and you have an academic role that you've taken up again this year.
Dr. Liz Wearne:
You want to—
Sharee Johnson:
what do those things add to your, the mix of your, the things that come under the umbrella of work?
Dr. Liz Wearne:
Yeah, I guess I think the board, the governance role Again, another example in my life of someone— and I'm reluctant to say tapped me on the shoulder, but an invitation from someone to say, "Would you be interested in having a go at this?" And I guess in some ways I'm very fortunate. I live in a part of Victoria where, you know, it's a relatively small network of people. So— and having worked in the GP training land for a long time, I had a fair fairly broad network. So, you know, a bit of a profile amongst people where, you know, people knew who I was and could ask me into those circles. So, um, and just as a bit of background context, come sort of 2017, I, I realized I was really exhausted in my job, and I, I stepped away from the role that I'd been in, and I had a bit of a break. And it was one of those And I think I hear this from a lot of doctors who are contemplating a break or a change in their practice, is one of their biggest fears is, am I still going to be able to pay the bills? How am I going to— how am I going to still, you know, pay my mortgage and keep things afloat? And inevitably, most people I know who do jump off, as was my experience, is that you— it's not until you jump off, something that you start to see all the other opportunities there. And so the PHN work, before I was on the board, I was doing a role with the PHN doing some medical writing and some advisory work, which was so exciting for me to think that— I look back at her, this was sort of about 10 years ago nearly, and I, how did I have any, you know, any reason to advise, or, you know, what did I know about the world to advise about? But it was a great job because I started to work around people who are very, you know, health adjacent. They're working to design the system in which GPs operate and fill the gaps that GPs just can't do anymore. So yeah, that was really exciting. And so I was doing some medical writing, I was back doing some teaching again, and at that stage stage, I kind of knew in GP training land at that stage, I think the federal government had flagged that the whole system was going to be reformed come 2021-22, and the training was going to be handed back from the Department of Health to the colleges of GP, to ACRRM and the RACGP. And I don't know, I guess that I look back now and go, that was a really interesting 2 or 3 years of recalibration for me. Because I had to decide, well, who am I going to be in this system? What do I bring? What— who are the people I need to hand the microphone to, so to speak? And how am I going to keep optimistic in an environment that was very political at the time? And it's probably not really my strength.
Sharee Johnson:
Be political, are you saying?
Dr. Liz Wearne:
Yeah, or like it just wasn't of great interest to me to be politically wrangling and schmoozing. And, you know, I enjoyed it. I got to, to work with a lot of external stakeholders that have become great friends and people who I have so much respect for within the system. But again, it was— it forced me— there was a yearning sense at the start of that. That phase where I went, well, okay, I've got my PHN work. At this stage, I, I'd stepped out of clinical practice altogether. I had nearly 3 years where I wasn't doing any clinical work at all. And that part of that phase of recalibration was going, well, how can I be a doctor and— or how can I be a medical teacher and not be doing the work? And there was that sort of getting real with myself and a bit of accountability that needed to happen about, well, I don't want to stand in front of a room of registrars and not be doing the work that they're doing. That doesn't look credible. It didn't feel credible to me. Yeah. So, yeah, at different times in the last 15 years, really, I've always held some kind of education role alongside clinical practice. Or instead of clinical practice. And the governance work, and you mentioned policy work, I've often found myself on working groups. Again, just people ring and say, are you interested in this? It's kind of fallen into a few spaces. But the ability to say yes and no to things according to whether it, you know, makes my socks roll up and down or it's something I'm really interested in advocating for. That's, you know, what a gift in a career.
Sharee Johnson:
I'm talking about which way to go. I'm noticing, like, you know, I noticed so much as a non-doctor this, this theme. Like, I think I've said to you that, you know, it's a kind of who knew moment for me to really get to learn that this umbrella term of doctor has so many things under it. You know, I think as, as a patient, as a member of the community you go to see the doctor when you're unwell or when you have a health question, and that's really as far as my thinking at least had extended. And in this last decade or more, I've learned that, you know, under this umbrella of doctor is researcher, writer, academic, and, you know, educator, supervisor, you know, just so many, so many roles. And, and to And today, so many more, because doctors are, you know, working with tech companies and in pharmaceuticals and all of these places. You know, doctor is such a catch-all word, it can include so many things. So, so I'm just noticing that in myself, that this variety that exists and the expectation, the, the range of tasks and the expectation. You know, I have many doctors, probably more of them the male doctors, I think, than the female doctors, will ring and say I need some time management because it's sort of more businessy, or it's more kind of skills-based than to just say, I'm not coping. And then they tell me all the committees and all the things that they're on and all the extra tasks that they're doing and all the expectations of their boss or their college or their whoever's. And I end up saying invariably, well, I think it sounds like you're already an expert time manager. Maybe that's not quite the right question. Um, so I'm wondering What's striking you as you're talking about these things, these adjustments or these adaptations of a bit more of this, a bit less of that? I really like this, I really don't like that. And you made a comment there about saying yes and no. How do you— how have you learned to work out what to say yes to and what to say no to?
Dr. Liz Wearne:
Yeah, I, I— it's such a good question. I, I really think I've had to, I had to hone my barometer quickly in terms of how much energy have I got. And I, and I was in Chidji. I remember back early days of working, teaching workshops with registrars, I came across, I think it might, it might have even been you who shared it with me. It was someone who'd given a TED Talk. I can't even remember the person to acknowledge them, where he talks about being off balance on purpose. And that really hit me and it really stays with me, this idea that there are phases in your career or your life where you can choose a role or a pace of working that's, you know, full-on and it takes up a lot more of your life than you perhaps might have originally wanted it to, but you've got the energy for it. I think about my best friend in the whole world since uni who is working on his thesis at the moment and he's putting so much time and effort and he's parked so much of his life for a few months to be writing. But I can hear in his voice when he tells me about it how excited he is and how much he's loving doing it. And that there's almost this sort of anticipatory grief for him that it's going to end. But he's really, you know, his life is off balance from my perspective because he's not doing all the other things he normally does. But he's doing it on purpose. He's chosen it. It's an intention that he has created for himself because it's, it's working towards something. Similarly, and I think it's the, it's the devil in medicine, is that we have, we have made rest so demonized, haven't we? And that there are times for rest. The last couple of years for me have been a time of rest, um, from, from medicine. I've been doing my 2 days clinic work a week, which I love But I have— there's been 5 days of a week that have been about doing what makes me feel rested and well and restored. So I, I think choosing different roles at different times has been about checking in with myself first and going, do I have the energy for this? Do I want to be making time for this? So I've just, just in the last couple of weeks started back in a, a senior lecturer role teaching students again. But the excitement I have about it is because I chose that. I didn't have to say yes to that. Um, I've gotten pretty good over the years at saying no. Um, and, and living with the consequences of that. And there are consequences. It's not easy. Um, but I've chosen it and I, it, you know, I'm the only one who can be accountable to whatever the consequence of that extra period of time I put into that a week.
Sharee Johnson:
It sounds and looks joyful and empowering.
Dr. Liz Wearne:
Yeah, the night before my first shoot last week, I was just getting my thoughts together and I noticed myself smiling. You know, I'm walking around the house with this sort of big dumb grin on my face and I caught myself and went, ah, this is how you know this is where you're supposed to be.
Sharee Johnson:
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Liz Wearne:
Yeah.
Sharee Johnson:
Yeah. What about the opposite? How do you know when you've got it wrong? What, what's the, what's the cue or the thing that you—
Dr. Liz Wearne:
Yeah, I'm just trying to think of a time. Yeah, I think, I think when there's a feeling of resignation, isn't it? It's this sense of, oh boy, I'm, I've gotten in a bit deeper than I can here. I'll just make the most of it. I'll make the most of it. I'll, you You know, I'm not the kind of person that goes, I'm just going to coast and, you know, hope no one— hope no one notices that I'm not really into this. If I've committed to something, I'll commit. But I'll probably look at other ways to manage myself. A good example of that is my clinical work. There are times when it feels extra heavy or I feel like it's not a fun day of my week. It's not fun. I don't think it should be fun, but it just doesn't feel as uplifting as it does at other times. And often, you know, I'm committed to it, but what I have to do is wiggle something outside of work or in my own mind. I think I've learned to recalibrate day to day differently. Over time. Yeah, yeah. So I'm not sure if that answered the question. I'm thinking too that I'm, I'm the kind of— it takes me a long time to make decisions, particularly about work. Um, I think I've, I've learned my lesson from 15 years of saying yes to everything, and, um, I'm, I'm learning again to say yes. I've had a— I've had probably 5 years now of being very deliberately saying no to a lot of extra things. And, and now I've sort of spent that time working on building up my energy to say yes to things again.
Sharee Johnson:
Again, I feel like I want to come back, but I want to just honor that other part of your life that you're touching on or getting around. So, um, you know, in recent years you've made a very deliberate decision to honor that artistic part of your life and your world, and we can see some of your artistic tools there around you and some of your creations there over your shoulders. Can you tell us about that? What's that been like to, to honor this other part of you who is curious about art and about herself as an artist? Can you tell us a bit about those— that the process, I guess, for to get there?
Dr. Liz Wearne:
Well, well, again, I— it's, it's another example of a door, a door being opened, being invited through a doorway. I, back in 2021, so probably just as the worst of the lockdowns here in Victoria was starting to end and we were starting to, to kind of come out into groups a little bit more, I think COVID shifted a lot of things in my life, a lot of relationships. And I really thrived in that first year because I was working from home. I felt very safe. But other people's worlds around me changed, and I think I found myself in need of something new, and I wanted to learn a new skill. So I took a— just a one-off wheel throwing pottery class with total strangers. And I don't know, it was sort of a bit of a love at first sight thing with pottery. I don't think I felt particularly good at it, and I think that was attractive at the time. I'd had a— I've had— and a lot of doctors will say this, won't they, that they don't have many experiences in their life of not being good at something and looking like a bit of an idiot. And to me, that was my instant feeling. I felt very vulnerable. Because everything I tried to center wouldn't center, and everything wobbled, and everything fell over. And, and I had to kind of park the ego a little bit and, and be bad at something so that I could practice and get better at it. And that turned into, I'm going to go back and do a longer course. And then when Reeve, who was my wonderful wheel throwing teacher, invited me to start coming along just to a little social group on a Friday night where we would take dinner and, and pot together. And that, that was just an instant new family of people in my life. What a refreshing thing in your mid-40s to find a group of friends all sort of brought together by the same interest, but also who— they just, they don't sit around and gossip. We sit around and talk about art, and we sit around and talk about ideas and the natural world around us. And we're all very like-minded in that respect, even though we're, you know, it's a big age difference amongst the group and different life stages that we're all in. So yeah, this is me talking about pottery and haven't even mentioned the actual art side of things. I think, I think ceramics is attractive to me because every part of the process is so analogous to life. Things fail, things break, things that you think are going to look a particular way end up looking like something else. You've got to work with the elements, you've got to work with the humidity and the temperature and the feel of the clay, how dry the clay is or how wet. Like, it's so much an analogy all the time for how we can live a good life, I think, and let go of attachment, share. I've never met a potter who's not naturally inclined to want to share, share what they're doing. There's not a lot of sort of competitive stuff in this, in the pottery world. Everyone's sharing their techniques and their glaze recipes and firing schedules and things. So it, it opened up a brilliant world of unlearning perfectionism, but also a network of people and friendships that, that just, you know, every week it makes my heart sing to think I've found myself in this place.
Sharee Johnson:
You mentioned before that there were consequences for decisions, and you also mentioned earlier in our conversation about doctors worrying about their financial status when they think about not, not doing clinical work. Certainly that's a conversation I have with doctors often if I do more more education or more of this or more of that. I don't get paid as well as if I'm doing my anesthetics work or my surgery work or my whatever work, my clinical work. What happened to your identity? Or how did you manage your doctor identity? Or that— or even that feeling you talked before as well about, you know, having 3 years out of clinical work and, and teaching registrars and thinking, what's the need here for me in terms of current clinical work while I'm teaching. Can you talk a little bit about those, those identities, the clinical identity or the doctor identity, and now the artist, and those decisions and consequences?
Dr. Liz Wearne:
Yeah, it's, it's a really layered set of mental skills, I think, to learn how to navigate that, isn't it? I think you have to start to experiment with your language. You know, you and I, Sheree, over the years, you've introduced that whole idea of changing, changing 'should' to 'could' in a sentence. 'I should do this' versus 'I could do this,' you know. And it always comes down to choice, doesn't it? I have— I could choose this direction or that direction. Every choice has a consequence of some kind, and I think the sooner in life we can make peace with that the easier things can be. If I can choose a direction with eyes wide open to what might happen as a result and what really fundamentally matters to me, then I'll always make the right decision. If I take the time to stop and check into those two things— what might the costs be, what actually, what is the most important thing here— And for me, more and more, the most important thing is time. Is the time to be healthy, the time to see my friends, the time to do my professional development for my work in a way that, that's more useful to my patients. Um, the time to make art, to just play here in the studio because it makes my body feel relaxed. You know, um, that's, that's, you know, time is more important to me than money at the moment, at this part of my life. But I don't, uh, for a minute dishonor the early part of my life where I really wrecked myself working. But that set me up for now. So in some ways, that was a blessing and a curse, you know. I wouldn't trade my burnout story because of what I learned from it. But I also know that she set me up to be here now without knowing it. So I'm sorry, I was just going to also say most of the time too, I think we don't— we often find when we're in a good space, we've made a choice with agency, we often find ourselves in a better financial position. That was my experience when I stepped out of clinical work back in 2018, was I took on these other little jobs. And I looked at my tax return at the end of the year and went, oh, I'm fine, I'm more than fine, I have enough.
Sharee Johnson:
So that story that you were telling yourself actually was a myth?
Dr. Liz Wearne:
Yeah, of course it was, like most of the stories we tell ourselves.
Sharee Johnson:
Yes, there's the stories indeed. So the other thing I'm noticing, Liz, is that there are these chapters or these phases that, you know, in your 20s— I think another thing that I hear very often from doctors is that, you know, it's opportunity city in your 20s, especially, you know, perhaps once you work out which specialty you want to be involved in and you get immersed in that specialty. If there are opportunities from, from people just a few years ahead of you to join in a piece of research or to join on a committee or to join, um, you know, some outpost clinic or whatever, that those things, um, you know, saying yes is very important in terms of experience and challenge and connection, networks, all of those things. Then perhaps into your 30s, the, the, the— there's a recalibration of, you know, I don't need to say yes to everything anymore, I've got enough runs on the board, or I've discovered that I don't actually like X, Y, and Z, I love A, B, and C. Um, and now, now in your 40s, a different sense again of what's important. And perhaps that goes on into every decade or every 3 years or 5 years or whatever. How do you, how do you feel about that kind of ongoing recalibration that is happening kind of all the time?
Dr. Liz Wearne:
Uh, I, I, I personally feel excited about it because I feel like I've learned, I've learned good lessons along the way about, about opportunity. Um, because for me it's been, it's been more than just about there having been opportunities there for me to say yes to, because It's actually been about having champions at different times too, because I— and I hear this from a lot of young women doctors, that this sense that they have to feel really competent before they say yes to something. I think there's a lot of research that talks about that these days too, is that women will often wait until they feel able or really good at something before they throw their hat in the ring. I was lucky in that at different points not only did I have opportunities presented, but I had people that I loved and respected say, "Come on, you know, I'll help you. I'll open this door for you." You know, I'm thinking back to when I was a medical educator and James Brown, who, you know, is quite a senior figure in general practice training in this country and had been my boss for a long time, I had a lot of love and respect, but he said, "Come and join us and do some qualitative research." And 'You know, I think you'd be really suited to it, and we'll help you, and we'll teach you everything you need to know.' And at the time, it was like, 'Wow, he was spot on. This is really floating my boat.' So, um, having— it's more than just the opportunity. It's the, it's the people that tap you on the shoulder and, and tell you that they're going to give you a hand. And I think now it's, it's really, really interesting for me at this point in my life physically, you know, I'm 47 years old. My body is doing all the weird perimenopausal things that bodies do. But one of the things it's doing is it's actually, I've actually all of a sudden got this surge of self-doubt that I haven't had for a long time. And it's really, it's, it's interesting and it's helpful because it's helping me go to sort of re-narrate my, where I'm at. Differently to myself and go, you don't need to doubt yourself. Of course you can do this. Maybe your role in this opportunity is different to, to what you thought it was. You know, maybe, you know, certainly coming back in and teaching medical students now feels different because I'm teaching a generation that learn entirely differently to how I learned, or even the early learners that I taught., and I have to work with, with a different kind of doubt in myself. So I'm recalibrating in that aspect as well. Yeah, it's— but I don't feel frightened of recalibration like I might have once, because I trust. I trust in my friends, and I trust in the, the wise people I have in my life that I can go to for help. I trust in my ability to stay really present to sit with difficult stuff, to admit when I'm wrong and to own when I'm wrong and learn from when I'm wrong. Like, I really back myself these days, and that excites me.
Sharee Johnson:
That's so awesome. You've, you've referred a few times to being lucky, and you've talked about the champions and the people who've opened doors for you, and all of that's incredibly relevant. Having champions and having sponsors in your life is so awesome. It makes the path much easier. And definitely there's a, you know, we really want to celebrate our champions and our sponsors. And there's also a story about being ready for luck, that, you know, you create— you, when you see an opportunity or when you have a lucky break, that you're ready to— that you are alert and aware and that you notice it. That some people have extraordinary opportunities pass them by that they only see in hindsight. What are the things that have helped you, I guess, be ready? It sounds like— well, you— it sounds like you're saying that, you know, you trusted these people, that that was a really important thing, that having people around you that, that when they said, 'We'll help you,' you trusted that they actually would. Yeah. And, and I guess the question then is, did they? Did they come through?
Dr. Liz Wearne:
Were they reliable? Yeah, that, that's a great question. I think I think it— trust is part of it. Um, self-trust is a big part of it too, that in that if you're going to dive in, there's a part of you that go— well, has to go, well, what, what's the worst thing that could happen here? And you know, I'm going to be okay. You can dump me in this, and if it all falls apart, I'll be fine because I have this, this, and this. And often that's, like you say, inner scaffolding and outer scaffolding. It's, yeah, it's courage, I think.
Sharee Johnson:
Well, we certainly, we, you know, from a psychological point of view, we understand that success breeds success, and particularly if you're reflective and you're able to notice, you know, your role in things or your ability in things, so that as you rightly say, next time you come around, you go, well, I don't really know how to do this, or I'm not really sure I'm not sure how to progress this, but I believe in my own ability to find the resources and to find the next step and to find the guides or the people who will help me find the next step. So I don't need to know all of the answers right now. I don't need to have the whole map or the whole territory. I just have this confidence in my capacity to find out, to think critically, to understand to ask the right questions, to be curious.
Dr. Liz Wearne:
Yeah, and I, I think, you know, going back to your original question, there have been times in my life where I've asked for help or I've, I've been in situations where someone has, has offered to help and the help hasn't been forthcoming. And, and that— I think what I've, you know, when I was young and a bit emotionally naive, that would have probably triggered a fairly big angry reaction or a disappointed sense. I think, I think one of the beautiful things about being a doctor is that you, you witness the human condition up close multiple times a day over years. Like, it's, it's— how can you not be, be excited to learn about human beings up close like that? But what you see is people, the way people can rise above anything, the way people can, um, can have help from others that, that save their lives, um, the way people can choose to save the lives of others through kindness and through small acts. Um, I would be doing a dishonor to, to my patients if I didn't take lessons from each and every one of them that have taught me about trusting yourself, trusting your instincts, hanging in there, keeping going when all the odds are against you. Like, that's— yeah, I think I've learnt to do those things because of them in a lot of ways.
Sharee Johnson:
So I was going to ask you, what would you— what are the kind of recalibration messages that you've learnt that you would want to share share with your younger self or, or younger doctors? I think in some ways you've just answered that in terms of talking about trust and trusting yourself. And is there—
Dr. Liz Wearne:
is there— I've got— maybe quite emotional. Yeah. Um, oh, I, I've been thinking a lot about this and about the idea about trusting your instincts. And I— and again, you know, I, I don't want to harp on, on gendered stuff too much, but I think a lot of women are taught to suppress their instincts about a lot of things, and probably men too, in terms of just how you're supposed to be in the world. And certainly medical culture has a lot of very strong hidden messages and hidden curriculum and things that we don't even realize is happening. But I think if I could talk to my younger self or my colleague, you know, I think encouraging people to trust their instincts. If your body is feeling something's not right, or if you find yourself repeating the same harmful patterns over and over again, or there's a problem in your life you can't get past, you know, there's, there's something going on. You need to pay attention. And I think that's, that's what trusting one's instincts is important. Equally, I think being able to be present and pay attention is the big core skill, isn't it? Um, if we don't stop and take stock, um, we, we're not— we're never going to be able to put our attention in a particular place. Um, you know, mindfulness practice changed my life. Um, again, something I kind of just fell into, but it's, it's the, the foundation skill for everything else in my life. I can't make a decision if I'm not aware, paying attention, listening. How do I know what my instincts are if I'm not listening?
Sharee Johnson:
We might argue that you can make a decision. Whether it's an effective or useful or right decision might be a different question. I want to— I'm just mindful of time, so I want to move ourselves along a little bit. And I just, as you're talking there, I was thinking there's a number of policy settings that have changed in Australia for primary primary care. You know, the government has really moved to push a lot of bulk billing and in some ways has incentivized fast medicine. You were talking at the beginning about slow medicine. There are very different practices across the world in terms of nurse practitioners and others. There are pharmacists who are doing things now that GPs, you know, have taken a long time to learn to do well and who do comprehensively. What, what does it take to be, um, a doctor in a world where there's so many things that are outside of your control? You know, you're not in control of the— if we look to America, there are very complex things about paying and insurance. And so if we look at the NHS in the UK, a different set of problems. Again, so many things outside of the doctor's control. This, not this sort of naive, almost old-fashioned idea that the doctor will meet the patient and that they'll listen to each other and collaborate and, and be very focused on the patient's health. You know, there's so many other things for the doctor to be thinking about in that process. What's your reflection for current day? I know you're working in a different model of care in the Aboriginal Health Service. But what's your reflection at this moment, from your perspective, about how doctors can hold all of that out-of-control stuff that's beyond their control and still feel some sense of being grounded and committed and purposeful in their work?
Dr. Liz Wearne:
Yeah, wow, big— that's a big question. It is a big question. And, and my first instinct is to say, well, I think you need to focus on what you can control to start with, or you'll go mad, won't you? Um, I see, I see a lot of, um, colleagues pretty angry about the state of healthcare, um, in the country. And I, and I think it's, it's, it's occurring underneath all these other layers of social revolution that are going on around us. Um, you know, the There's a digital— massive digital shift which is completely changing the nature of healthcare delivery. We've got social change in terms of gender politics and, you know, there's a lot of dismantling of patriarchy going on around us and that's really unsettling for lots of people and lots of structures. We've got a younger generation who want to solve big structural problems. How healthcare— what healthcare looks like and feels like for the provider who's in the middle of their career versus the patient who, who might not think about healthcare the same way. It— I think there's this real chasm between provider and consumer at the moment that, that's, that's shifting so quickly we can't kind of get our heads around it. Um, you know, I know, for example, you know, in Australia GPs talk a lot collectively about how important continuity of care is. But I know a lot of young patients of mine, they don't care about continuity of care. They care about efficiency, cost, accessibility. Can I get an appointment within 2 weeks for this injection that I need so I can go traveling? Like, they don't care if they're not seeing the old family doctor from cradle to grave, whereas for a lot of us, that's kind of the narrative. So I think the other answer to that question, other than is than focus on what you can control is start to play with the stories a little bit. You know, we demonise role substitution and task substitution, but I work in a part of the world where it's going to be absolutely necessary if we're going to provide primary care. We have a huge percentage of our local GPs who are just on retirement age here, and there's no kind of army of young doctors coming to save the day. I work alongside a brilliant nurse practitioner who— his scope is almost bigger than mine. He's learned so many skills from all the places he's worked. He's offering the skills of 5 people. So yeah, so definitely, you know, sure, there's a lot that we need to stay abreast of and advocate for within a system, but if what we can control is the quality of our work, the parts of our work that AI can't touch, you know, what is it about a GP that is unique and what value do we serve our community and how can we do that the very best way we can while preserving some of ourself and also having to think about, I guess, about the way in which we sit through change. How do we, how do we tolerate loss? It's not even change that we're scared of. I think it's loss, isn't it? And how are we going to build a life of meaning as doctors knowing that we're going to have to lose these things?
Sharee Johnson:
We do.
Dr. Liz Wearne:
Yeah.
Sharee Johnson:
So you're touching on this idea of anticipatory recalibration, you know, that when you can see things coming, when you can see, you know, AI providing, you know, some really useful tools, you know, some of the doctors who are using the script tools, the transcribing tools, are, you know, delighted with how much more attention they can now give their patients and see that as a very useful tool. Wasn't my experience, but I feel like that's a kind of rabbit hole to get into AI, which we won't do at this stage. But we can see that there's, you know, all these changes, they're very constant, they keep on coming. It's the one thing that is happening is continual change. Is there anything that you do for anticipatory change that you feel like, you know, at some stage you will retire from medicine? It's still a long way away, hopefully for the rest of us, but that, you know, that you still contribute for a long time yet. But there are things that we know are going to happen down the track. So, so what is it that we need to be focused on? What are the skills that we want to remember or value or keep turning to and, and, you know, advancing, becoming? You talked about mindfulness before. I think it's often something I say to people, we want to be skillful with this tool. It's one thing to say I know how to be mindful, it's another thing to be really skillful about when and how to use it when the heat's on.
Dr. Liz Wearne:
Yeah.
Sharee Johnson:
What are the kinds of things that you're you, you think about for anticipatory change?
Dr. Liz Wearne:
Well, I think I always come back to what are— how can I give myself the best conditions to bring my best self to work? What ingredients do I need outside of work so that come Thursday morning when I go to work, my absolute my hardworking, energetic, empathetic, attentive, my best self. How do I get my ground ripe for bringing my best self to my job? And for me, that's pretty simple ingredients. It's seeing my friends, it's good food, it's making some art, it's breathing the salt air and putting my feet in the salt water. And it's actually, you know, I have to really deliberately and almost very assertively make time to do those things. And, you know, it's journaling and meditation practice and those small habits each day that allow me to at least give myself a fighting chance that you're going to get the best version of Liz at work. It doesn't always work. I fall short, you know. Not uncommonly. But I, I think if we can make ourselves, um, as close to our essence as we can be on any given day by doing the things that we each need to do to get there honestly, then when we come to work, um, we can tolerate any kind of change really. Our patients are, are change personified, aren't they? We watch their bodies change and grow, and their physiology change and grow. And we really— like I said, like, changes, changes happening all the time. And it's not always what's painful, it's, it's loss that we have to get ready for. And I'm very conscious at my age that I'm doing a bit of anticipatory recalibration for this part of my life where my parents are getting older, a lot of my loved ones are are getting older and their bodies are decaying just like mine is. So, you know, I can control as much as I can about my own physical health and mental health. I can't control what's happening to my loved ones so much, and there's some anticipatory skill building for me. Mindfulness is a big part of that because being able to sit with, with pain and distress and anxiety and That's, um, that's inevitable. That's coming, um, as is having to plan a life where, you know, things might happen to my body that I— that, you know, I might fall and break my leg. I'm not sitting around endlessly ruminating about those things, but I think about, you know, downsizing my property that I live on because I want to spend my time doing different things and I don't want to be stuck having to mow lawns if I'm, you know, needing a hip replacement or something. So there's a bit of forward planning that has to happen in your mind and imagining circumstances. And I think in medicine it's the same. We have to imagine a time ahead of us where we're not the smartest person in the room anymore with our colleagues. We're not the youngest, most up-to-date innovative person. We're the one, we're the naysayer to the technology, whereas we would have been the one running with it and teaching everyone else how to use it 20 years ago.
Sharee Johnson:
Yeah, it's— there's so much here, Liz. We could keep going for a very long time. I think there's about 8 more things that you've just— no, it's wonderful. It's just lovely having this time to talk with you. We've worked for nearly 10 years together in our Recalibrate program, which, you know, our group coaching program. And so you, like me, have witnessed, had the privilege of witnessing, you know, a lot of doctors come through that process where they arrive sometimes wanting to build skills, sometimes feeling burnt out, the whole gamut from all the different specialties in medicine. And, you know, most of those people have something changed, something, some different experience through through their, through the program. What are the kind of themes that you feel like you notice for doctors, uh, as they move through that either that kind of 6-month journey or a longer, wider journey? What, what do you see, um, I, what I guess as useful themes or useful, um, insights that doctors have?
Dr. Liz Wearne:
Yeah, I think, and I think when I talked about it a little bit a few years ago when we were talking about expanding some of our offerings for younger doctors. I think one thing I've noticed is that some things just take time to learn and develop. There is a developmental arc that has to unfold, and you've got to kind of trust the timing of that. That you can't just sort of, you know, I can't go back in time and tell my 25-year-old self to just, just, you know, work. Everything, everything's gonna be fine. Just keep going. Um, because back then she was, she was terrified she was going to look like an idiot in front of everybody, um, or that she wasn't— she was, she was actually an imposter. So I, I've seen a lot of our recalibrators, um, just have to work through, you know, I meet them when they first come into the program and I go, well, you are phenomenal human being, and you're good, you're going to be fine. And I know that for sure because I'm just a little bit further down the road than you, and of course you're going to be fine. But they don't know that yet, and they have to kind of work their way through it. Um, I think I've seen the power of a cheer squad for people coming in. Um, it's such a precious thing to be with people who actually really care about what they're doing and really care about the way they care, that they want to be really loving, a really loving presence in their job and in their lives and with their families. And they don't want to get swallowed whole by medicine. So I see them come in and go, okay, I'm not the only one who feels like this. Let me get to work. Let me learn from each other, everyone else here about how you've gotten to where you have, to a place of peace or contentment in life. I just, I see how effective courage is, really, when someone has the courage to try to try out something a little bit differently, that everyone else goes, oh yeah, I might give that a go, I might try that. That's really, that's really That still gives me goosebumps seeing that happen.
Sharee Johnson:
Is that your experience of courage, that when you've had the courage to try something, it's been— it sounds like you're saying it's been worth it?
Dr. Liz Wearne:
Oh, always, always. Even when you fall on your butt, you know, um, you, you'll laugh and dust yourself off and have another crack, don't you? What else? What other choice do we have? Um, I think I've gotten better at at being able to have a crack, so to speak, and be— and knowing that I am going to probably, you know, the odds are that I probably am going to fail. And that's been a big learning curve for me over time, is being better at failing. Um, but, but I, I think— and we talk about, you and I talk about this, about courage and patience being the same thing. I think I'm I'm a world expert at patience. I've, I've always been a pretty patient person, and I think that comes from having spent a lot of time in nature and taking a lot of my lessons in life from what's happening in the natural world around me and watching cycles of repetition and renewal, trusting that all things have a time, don't they? They, they, they, they beat to a particular timing. Humans are no different. Um, I think that that's something— that's probably trust, isn't it? It is trusting, trusting that the world is holding you safely. Um, but yeah, I think courage— the more scared you are, the greater the reward when you, when you do it.
Sharee Johnson:
Well, I think if we went back and made a word cloud out of our conversation, Liz, we'd say vulnerable, scared, trust, courage. And a lot of that sounds like resilience. I know that's not a word that healthcare or doctors particularly want to hear, but there is some developmental process of building resilience through experience that this experience that, that these experiences that teach us that, you know, I can have a crack and I might fall down and I'll be able to get back up and I'll have another try. And the more of those you have, the more of those you seem able to have. And, and that's also in contrast with this cultural idea in medicine of, you know, show no weakness, be tough, be strong, keep going. So it is a complex landscape for doctors to live in. So I want to say thank you to you for this amazing conversation. You've shared a with us about your internal experiences and the way you think and talk to yourself and have learned to do over the— over your medical career. Is there— is there one mantra or one, you know, little sentence that you use to ground you that you might offer to our listeners as something that they might like to try out?
Dr. Liz Wearne:
There's so many, and they're all kind of— it depends on the circumstance and how I feel about it. I find myself a lot of the time these days telling myself to do the work. Do the work comes into my mind a lot. It comes into my mind around pottery and when I'm thinking about what I'm making, but also about imagining future events and how I want to feel. And I've got to do the work to get there. Like, that's— that comes back to me often. I think a lot about about— and Oren Jay Sophers' book Say What You Mean was very, very foundational for me early on. But he, you know, one of his pillars of his approach to nonviolent communication is about knowing what really matters, what's most important. You know, I find myself asking me that myself all the time. What, what really matters in this decision? What's most important? What would my values have me do?
Sharee Johnson:
Yeah, well, I was just going to say, I think we started with values and we seem to have landed back there at the end. Is there anything else you want to share before we wrap up our conversation, Liz?
Dr. Liz Wearne:
It's been just very generous of you to— just to, just to thank you. It's, um, it's quite a generous gift to ask someone to, to sort of reflect on, on life and a career. It's a little bit self-indulgent. It just feels a bit odd to me to, to spend an hour talking about myself, but it's, um, But thank you. It's been some pennies drop in my mind in this conversation. And I, you know, I'm always grateful for any time I get to spend with you. But biggest congratulations too on this podcast. I'm really looking forward to all the conversations you're going to have.
Sharee Johnson:
It's very exciting. Well, thank you very much, Liz, for being with us. So we'll get the show notes out with Dr. Liz Wearne's story, including the Orange J. Soffer book that she's just referred to, Say What You Mean. And I look forward to whenever we next meet, Liz.
Dr. Liz Wearne:
Thanks, Sharee.
Sharee Johnson:
Thank you so much. Well, how was that for our first episode? Dr. Elizabeth Wern, GP, supervisor of GPs, medical educator. She has just shared with us much wisdom. I think all of those experiences where she has learned to fail, has picked herself back up, has seen an open door and been able to take the opportunity— she was referring to luck, of course, and I think we do want to acknowledge there are many things outside of our control. And also she was— had a readiness or an openness to her. And that's one of the things that I do love about Liz as a person that I know pretty well, is our work with doctors. She certainly has a, a curiosity and an openness to her, and that's why in part I wanted to invite Liz to be our first guest on the podcast. So thank you for listening. I look forward to sharing our next conversation with you next week, and in the meantime, may you be well. The content in this podcast is not intended to constitute or be a substitute for professional medical or psychological advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or other qualified healthcare professional. This podcast represents the views of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect those of any entity we work with or for.
